Note: Since I often give long replies to questions here and this page is getting pretty full, I’ve started turning my longer replies into articles and posting them on my website. After some time has passed for people to read the responses here, I’m deleting those responses and putting a link to the relevant article as my new response to the reader’s question. The reader’s original question remains on this page. So you can still read my response to the reader’s question: just follow the link that I give.
I’m glad to respond here to questions of general interest about Heathen spirituality and practice, which is the focus of my work and my website. However, unfortunately I don’t have the stamina to respond to personal requests, to run a prayer list, perform ceremonies, offer personal counseling, and the like. Nor will I address any political issues. Politics is important, but in today’s fractured and stressful world we all need to have some places that are politics-free zones, where we can focus on other important things. This website is one of them! So comments and requests on all of the topics I just listed will not be posted.
But by all means, ask your questions about Heathen spirituality: I enjoy them and enjoy responding to them, and I think other viewers on my website do likewise. These questions often stimulate new directions of thought and writing for me, and I thank you for that!
My role in Heathenry is as a writer, scholar, and practitioner of Heathen spirituality, theology, philosophy, rather than serving as a gythja, godwoman, clergy, counselor, or giver of pastoral care. I wish I could do everything, but I can’t! What I try to offer in my books and website is guidance for those who wish it, so people can learn to nurture and care for their own souls and for the souls of others. However much or little spiritual help we are able to access, in the end it all comes down to this: We ourselves must be the foremost caretakers of our own souls and of our relationships with our Holy Ones. With my writing, I hope to help people achieve this.
In frith,
~Winifred~
Winifred,
I’ve just finished reading both Soul Lore books, Wandering on Heathen Ways, and Oaths, Shild, Frith, Luck and Wyrd. Your work has changed my life and given me so many answers to questions I have been trying to solve for a couple years now(putting pieces together).Thank so much for that! But I still have questions..
I’m so glad my writings are helpful to you! If you have more questions you’re welcome to post them here and I’ll do my best to respond. Thank you for your good words!
Winifred
I just wanted to let you know how amazing your work is. Your website alone has such a wealth of knowledge and helpful information (I’m going to be using your Yule blot ritual shortly). Thank you for this website, first of all. Secondly, your books are the epitome of scholarly Heathen research and are exactly what I have been searching for. There are myriad intro to Heathenry/Asatru books in existence but very few advanced ones that delve deeper into the practice, beliefs, and philosophical aspects.
I have purchased the kindle version of “Heathen Soul Lore Foundations” and a hard copy of “Wandering on Heathen Ways”. You are such a fantastic writer and your work is never boring or dry, even when exploring such complex concepts in such detail and depth. I want to thank you for contributing so much amazing work to the Heathen community and the world in general. You are a treasure.
Best wishes and much love to you, Winifred.
Ellen Marie, your praise is very heartwarming–thank you! I write about what is meaningful to me, write from heart and souls as well as mind, and it’s so rewarding to know that there are other Heathens who also find these things as meaningful as I do. I feel like there are many people out there, like you and other commenters here and many others, whom I don’t know personally, but when our minds and souls are in touch through my writing we become friends in spirit. To me, this website and my books are both a temple and a spiritual home; what I write is my worship, my gift to the Holy Ones as well as to Heathens here in Midgard. It is lovely to be able to share this with people around the world!
Winifred
Winifred,
Hello again! I have a couple of questions that I would love to get your opinion on- I have been thinking about them for quite some time. I am relatively new to Heathenry so I apologize if they seem silly!
Do you think it’s okay to Blot to certain deities during the holidays even though you aren’t particularly close to them?
If you are close to more than one deity which a lot of Heathens are, do you think your Ghost could possibly travel easily to each of their halls as long as they’re willing?
Thank you for your time!
With utmost respect,
Jacques
I gave a long answer to this question of Jaques and another related one. To keep this Questions and Comments page to manageable lengths, I combined my responses into an article and moved it to this page on my website: https://heathensoullore.net/thoughts-on-the-afterlife-of-the-ghost/ Please head over there if you’d like to read it!
Winifred
Thank you for your input! That was great!
On the subject of Ghost reincarnation- do you think that it has the option to reincarnate whenever ready as you said or that it will do that in time no matter what? Or can our Ghost (Gods willing) continue to reside in their halls?
Thank you again!
Very respectfully,
Jacques
I gave a long answer to this question of Jaques and another related one. To keep this Questions and Comments page to manageable lengths, I combined my responses into an article and moved it to this page on my website: https://heathensoullore.net/thoughts-on-the-afterlife-of-the-ghost/ Please head over there if you’d like to read it!
Winifred,
Thank you for your wonderful feedback! I have another question and would love your opinion: How do you feel about silent prayers to the Deities when it comes to personal “one on one” devotion? I’ve heard some disagree with it which seems strange.
Thank you again! I truly appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
It does indeed seem strange to me, Jaques, that some people would disagree with silent, one-on-one devotion, but I see no need to be constrained by any such opinions! Why should anyone try to tell other people how not to go about their devotions? Now, as to suggestions for pursuing one’s devotions, I have a number of those on my website, very much including one-on-one and silent devotions. In particular, there are my articles on “Heathen Contemplation,” “The Great Gift,” and “Earth, Water, Wind and Fire,” among others.
There are any number of examples in the sagas and other old writings of people going one-on-one with our Deities and friendly spirits, though I don’t feel like looking up all the references at the moment. Odin comes to people privately and makes bargains with them. A devotee of Thor went off privately to the ocean shore to beg Thor’s help with fishing when his group was starving, and Thor sent a whale that beached itself. When a man who had been personally devoted to Frey died, Frey kept the man’s burial mound always free of snow and frost so that ‘nothing would come between them’–between the man’s spirit in his mound, and Frey the God of good seasons. Though not much is written about these, there were surely frequent prayers, both formal and informal, given by folks at home–housewives, elders, maidens, anyone–to their chosen Goddesses, Gods, Disir and Alfar, landwights, etc, for help and support. Far into Christian times crypto-Heathen folk maintained secluded frithyards, nooks and crannies in rocks for offerings, offerings at sacred wells and trees, and more, as we can see from many laws and church rules that forbade these things. Especially after ‘official’ conversion to Christianity, Heathens who maintained some of the old ways would have had to keep their words and actions relating to worship very private and silent, but they didn’t give them up. In Germany, Frau Holle and other Goddesses remained in folk-memory and folk practice through the centuries, and devotions to them were based on household and personal practices rather than formal group ceremonies. She is still a very popular figure in Germany.
As I understand it, forms of worship among Heathens (and other old Pagans) across many lands and many centuries ranged through the entire gamut from ‘high church’ public sacrifices and feasts, to specialized group observances such as those of warbands and mystery or priestly cults, to family and household observances, to personal and private devotions and offerings. I suggest not to concern yourself about other people’s opinions, but to pursue your own devotions as you and your Holy Ones see fit!
In frith,
Winifred
Just as another example, Jaques: throughout the ages people, women especially, have prayed to their Gods and especially Goddesses for conceiving a child, and for safe childbirth. These were certainly private, one-on-one prayers, often silent I’m sure. Another example is prayers for the safety of oneself or for loved ones who are going into battle or on an ocean voyage. My article “Matrons and Disir” talks about many such examples of personal prayer devoted to these Goddesses / demi-Goddesses / Spirits, as shown by hundreds of votive stones placed by their devotees in thanks for prayers answered.
Winifred,
I hope you are doing well! I wanted to ask you if you had any recommendations for books about how to write Runes?
Thank you for your time!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
Greetings, Jaques!
As I’m sure you know, there are a great many books about runes, and their usefulness depends on what you want to do with the runes and the context in which you want to do it. For example, divination and / or magic, and then what type of magic. There are also controversies about some of the books because of the views or reputations of their authors, even though their expertise may be acknowledged.
For myself, I like to go back to the basics: studying the various rune poems and the old runic inscriptions, the verses about the runes at the end of the Havamal, and so forth, and then do a lot of meditation and practice of my own. Experiment and see what works for me.
A couple of books useful for this are Ann Groa Sheffield’s “Long Branches: Runes of the Younger Futhark,” and Stephen Pollington’s “Rudiments of Runelore.” Both are based on solid scholarship but are readable and interesting. It’s also worth keeping up with new scholarship and discoveries by searching the internet for news on these topics, and perhaps following up with some of the references quoted.
A website that is based on Pollington’s translation and information is worth looking at, though it only discusses the Anglo Saxon Rune Poem: https://www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/written-and-spoken-old-english/old-english-alphabet-2/the-anglo-saxon-rune-poem/
A Wiki website has texts of all the old rune poems in original languages and translations, which is useful: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Rune_poems
One approach you could take is to use these as source materials, and then take the approach that I outline in my article “The Mood of the Runes.” With this approach you’re essentially making the runes your own: learning what there is to know about them intellectually, but then internalizing that knowledge, combining it with your own unique experiences, insights, purposes and goals, and thus growing your own approach.
An additional aspect is to ask one or more of our Deities to work with you on this project, teach and guide you. It could be Odin, of course, but it doesn’t have to be. Heimdall-Rig is a teacher of runes, too, and any of our Deities can do the same, each in their own way. I’ve learned much on this subject from Frigg, in a non-intellectual, even a non-verbal way, through meditative visions and intuitions.
Your Godly runic teacher(s) might step forth not so much because they’re acknowledged ‘experts’ on runes, but more because of how you want to *use* the runes and how they can teach that–teach how the runes can be applied based on their and your common interests, knowledge and skills. Freya has a lot to teach about using the runes for certain forms of magic and seidhr, for example, or the runes can be used to explore some of the mysteries lying in Mimir’s Well. Frigg and her ladies, or Sif, can teach use of the runes for homemaking and relationships, Eir for healing, Tyr or Thor for manifesting the runes in strong actions, etc, etc.
This teaching usually happens through intuitions, insights, and inspiration, and the use of a rune-journal is an important part of the process. Another thing I’ve found through meditation on each of the runes individually is that different Deities may teach us about different runes, as I write about in my article on Vor, for example. In fact, for me it seems like each rune has its own Godly teacher, though of course one Deity may teach about several. And even that is personal: for example, the rune Gebo, giving, might be taught to different people by different Deities depending on how each person ‘gives’ in their individual lives, how they contribute, support, offer, guide, heal–however each person’s ‘giving’ is shaped. Different Deities, and people, give in different ways. Same for each of the other runes. Likewise, you might well find that multiple Deities can teach you about each individual rune, from different perspectives.
For me, the most essential process for learning runelore is to undertake meditations on each one, first reading its rune-poem(s) and then keeping an open mind about what might come to you during meditation. I like to use meditative writing for this: just enter into meditation, then write in your journal whatever comes to mind without analyzing or organizing it until later, after the session is done. Each rune should be meditated upon multiple times to allow for different perspectives and insights. There’s a great deal to be learned from this, and your lore-hunter Hugr and Ghost souls will be of great help!
The approach I suggest here is a lot of work, I know–even more work than following some system that’s already laid out for you in a book or by a teacher. But it’s real and it goes deep, and it’s yours!
May the Gods speed your runing!
Winifred
Greetings, Winifred!
It is an honor to get to know you and I hope the Norns have blessed you with much joy as we continue forward into this new year. I deeply admire your work as I too possess a great passion for philosophy and long to understand the world. In large part of this I have frequently prayed to the All-Father, Frigg, and the other great deities of wisdom and they have truly given me such great rewards I can never repay. However, I was hoping to ask a question that I feel would best come from a philosopher such as yourself, something I long to truly be. And please let me say I found your excerpt on heathen philosophy to be absolutely beautiful and radiating with truth as far as my eyes could see. Truly, you have been blessed by the gods to carry such wisdom and understanding.
If possible, I was hoping to ask a few questions that may seem a little deep. They are in regard to certain beliefs of heathen faith regarding the gods and the afterlife. For a long time now I have had a deep pondering regarding some of these beliefs from a philosophical perspective and was hoping for your input, if possible. I feel by better understanding these questions I can better understand the world and truly set myself down on the path of becoming an enlightened philosopher.
Ben, thank you for your kind words! I’m always glad to hear from others who take an interest in Heathen philosophy, as I do myself. Deep questions are the best kind of questions, and I’ll be more than happy to consider yours about the Gods and the afterlife to the best of my ability. I’ll look forward to reading your questions.
Ben, just an additional note about Heathen philosophy: you might enjoy the latest article I posted just a week or two ago, called “Kvasir and the Fermentation of Wisdom.”
https://heathensoullore.net/kvasir-and-the-fermentation-of-wisdom/
Dear Winifred, thank you for your kind words as well and for sharing this knowledge with me. I will be sure to look over it and take it all to heart.
For my first question, I was hoping to ask a very strong question that has been asked since the dawn of civilization. It relates to the concept of fate. While my area of expertise in philosophy is focused mainly on ethics and political philosophy when it comes to metaphysics, I have always been a firm fatalist, and I have truly come to believe that certain key events in my life were predetermined.
However, I have long pondered on the extent that fate holds over all of us. The power of the Norns is unfathomable as they decide even the fate of the gods and goddesses themselves. However, I must wonder to what extent they control our lives. In philosophy, standard fatalism holds that while certain events in our lives have been predetermined since the universe began, there is still, at the very least, the possibility of free will, and that we are capable of making our own choices at the very least to random mundane events. For example, the Ancient Greek philosophy of stoicism, which I have come to deeply admire and adore, argues that while the events surrounding us are fated to be, our emotions and reactions to them are of our own accord. Determinism, however, is a far more extreme philosophy of destiny, as it argues that all of events, whether mundane or grand are predetermined.
I have pondered this for a long time but have yet to reach a definitive answer. Have the Norns determined everything about our existence? When they weave the thread of destiny, do they weave every event that surrounds us? Do they decide both our actions and thoughts? To what extent are we our own individuals? Are our thoughts and beliefs predetermined programmings? Do they decide what food we eat everyday, what clothes we wear, and what games we play? In Heathen philosophy, does free will exist or are all events and life forms but things determined by the power of three goddesses of destiny?
If possible, I would love to hear your answer to such a question asked and considered by philosophers throughout history.
A very good question indeed, Ben, and as it happens, I am currently working diligently on a book about this very topic: “Orlog Yesterday and Today: The Shaping of the Norns.” It’s going to take me a little while to condense my thoughts from the book into a shorter response to you, though! I always have trouble giving short answers to anything, and this topic is an especially dense one. So give me a little time to put that together, and I’ll get back to you here.
But here are a few teasers, which I’ll elaborate on later:
1) “Fate” as understood in the classical cultures of Greece and Rome certainly has similarities with the Heathen Germanic ideas of orlog and wyrd, but there are some very significant differences as well, which shift the ground of discussion about the nature of determinism in profound and interesting ways. In my view, it’s of vital importance to use each of these words–fate, orlog, wyrd–judiciously when pursuing a philosophical discussion about them, because they do not mean exactly the same things and hence our understanding of their implications differs depending on which concept–and culture–we’re focusing on.
2) In a very brief nutshell, I do not think that Germanic concepts of wyrd and orlog equate to hard determinism, at all. I argue that orlog is more a ‘conditioning’ force than a deterministic one: it lays down the conditions or parameters within which our choices and deeds must take place, but it neither determines those choices in advance, nor controls how we make them in the present, within the boundaries of those baseline conditions. Not only that, but we ourselves play a big role in setting those conditions, based on our past choices and deeds. The Norns may supervise the *process* by which orlog is laid in the Well, but the *substance* of what is laid is, to an extent, the result of our own choices and deeds, and these layers of orlog then proceed to ‘condition’ our future fields of choice and action.
There’s a big exception to what I say here though: in ancient Germanic thought, orlog and wyrd were most often used in the context of one’s fated time and mode of death. And in their minds, that was indeed determined by the Norns. But for all of one’s life up until the circumstances resulting in one’s death, there is no indication that every little mundane detail was decided and set in place by the Norns, though big life-changing events certainly show their hands at work. The circumstances of birth and death are determined by the Norns, but what happens in between those points in time is influenced by many factors and many beings, and provides a certain amount of space for the exercise of free will. (Now, whether our own society makes that exercise of free will difficult or impossible is another matter: we can’t blame the Norns for everything!)
From my limited reading of Stoic philosophy–and I might change my mind if I read more!–I think that much of it is compatible with Heathen modes of thought, more so than many other forms of philosophy. I find it a useful field of comparative study for Heathen philosophers and certainly recommend it! One of my articles I think demonstrates a mindset that’s quite consistent with Stoicism as I understand it: https://heathensoullore.net/a-heathen-meaning-of-ordeal/
I don’t know whether you’ve read this article of mine, but it discusses some aspects of orlog that might be of interest: https://heathensoullore.net/images-of-orlay/
I’ll get back to you again soon!
Winifred
Dear Winifred, thank you so very much for such a thoughtful and captivating answer. I enjoyed reading on your perspective regarding the extent of fate in our lives. For me, I have long pondered this question and I have felt that perhaps knowing the extent to which the Norns control our lives is beyond our full comprehension and that we must accept that most if not all of the details of our lives were by their design. However, your reasoning is quite compelling and well thought out. When you finish writing your book I would love to read it and learn more.
Also, thank you for your articles, I enjoyed reading them. For the second one, you are indeed correct as it shares many key philosophical tenets with stoic ideology. Stoicism emphasizes living in the moment and accepting whatever fate determines for one’s life. It teaches us to not be dominated by the past or to fear about the future, instead living in the moment and being free from attachments. This not to say one should not care about others or personal possessions, but to accept that times flows in one direction and that all we have will eventually fade, which we should accept and embrace to live a virtuous and happy life.
I see many parallels between this and Heathen philosophy’s lessons on life and living in harmony with nature.
If it is alright, I would like to hear your wisdom regarding another topic that I have long pondered but have failed to reach a definitive answer too? This one relates to the afterlife, for which I share a deep fascination of.
Ben, I certainly agree that the Norns and their work are beyond our full comprehension. By the same token, we can’t really either prove or disprove any theory about determinism as directed by them or any other Deities. We can’t prove or disprove their existence either, for that matter, and as philosophers across the ages have pondered, it’s hard to prove that anything outside ourselves exists, or that we ourselves exist…once one descends into that pit of philosophical nihilism, I have to say, I’m long gone! I find no profit in fruitlessly pursuing such questions!
We can only go by our own perceptions of What-Is, and the test or ‘proof’ of the validity of those perceptions is the value of our lived lives, to ourselves and to others whose lives we influence. I say the ‘validity’ rather than ‘philosophical truth’ of these perceptions because we cannot test or answer as to their absolute truth. And in fact we can speak of ‘wisdom’ in these terms, too: ‘wisdom’ in a sense being our perception of the value that specific knowledge and actions possess or lead us toward.
We can test the validity or the wisdom of our perceptions by measuring them against a set of values that we have–our ethics, our aspirations, our ideals–and see how well our responses to our perceptions of ‘wisdom’ lead to ‘wise’ deeds and to ‘wisdom’ from the outcomes of those deeds in our lives. To me, none of this pursuit of ‘wisdom’ and ‘truth’ is ‘absolute’; it is all proximate to a system of values, though I realize that many philosophers and theologians of various religions would argue with me about this!
So, following on with this reasoning, which I perceive as being compatible with a Heathen world-view, in my work I try to understand as well as I can where ancient Heathens were coming from–people who were Heathens for many generations, steeped in Heathen world-views. This is what I’m working on with respect to orlog and wyrd, which are the concepts closest to ‘fate’ in the Classical world-view, but are not identical with ‘fate.’ In my studies I’ve seen plenty of evidence of various kinds for a Heathen belief that Wyrd or the Norns shape the general course of people’s lives and predestine their deaths, but I’ve seen no evidence in ancient Heathen belief that this ‘shaping’ or influence applies to every tiny detail of their lives.
As Jacob Grimm insightfully pointed out, the fairy godmothers and similar figures in fairy tales of European cultures are the ‘descendants’ of the ancient Norns. We see these fairy godmothers ‘shaping’ the lives of newborns during their naming or christening ceremonies through the gifts or curses that they give the babies. And sure enough, these turn out to happen: the princess is beautiful and sweet and loved by everyone per the gifts, and pricks her finger on a spindle on her 16th birthday and falls asleep so no one can wake her for years, per the curse, etc etc. But the fairy godmothers certainly didn’t control how many times the child sneezed on the first day of February when they were 5 years old, or whether they got a pebble in their shoe when they took a walk on June fourteenth, or whatever.
In my perception, this kind of hard determinism is far more associated with monotheistic, authoritarian religion (Christian Calvinism is one example) or with the kinds of classical philosophy that later led to scientific determinism / absolutism and to the ‘Enlightenment’ that was indeed enlightening in some respects while being very misleading in its rejection of non-materialist / non-scientific knowledge and experience. I think that Heathenry, and Paganism / Polytheism / Animism generally, take a more open and flexible view of how the world works while still acknowledging the power and influence of the Deities and other Powers such as the Norns. And lesser Powers, too, such as the beings who bring luck and unluck.
I’m guessing that if you were taking a walk with an ancient Heathen and he stumbled and stubbed his toe, and you asked him ‘did the Norns make you stumble just now?’ he would look at you rather blankly. (Though he might easily say that his Fylgja or Hamingja, or someone else’s Fylgja or Hugr, or an ‘onflyer’ or a wight or a hag or other unluck-causing being made him stumble…but I don’t believe he would blame the Norns.) He might well agree that the Norns ‘shaped’ him to be a rather clumsy person who frequently stumbles, but that they reached out just now to make him stumble, or that they predestined him to stumble at that very minute in that exact place–I think this ancient Heathen would find that idea very unlikely. Unless, of course, that stumble led to some significant outcome: he dropped his weapon just at the moment that a lurker leaped out to attack and badly injure him, or the arrow that was shot at him out of hiding passed harmlessly over him as he was bent over his stubbed toe, or whatever. That, obviously, could show the Norns’ involvement.
But not every action or event of every minute of one’s life is so significant, and it’s the *significance,* not the event itself, that tells a Heathen that the Norns are involved. At least as I understand it. I would really emphasize this point: ‘significance’ is the cue, the significator, of the Norns’ involvement in our lives: not an ‘event’ per se, but a significant event. And that significance can be internal, personal, idiosyncratic, known only to ourselves, or it can be something externally obvious to others as well as to ourselves.
I would add, as you might also, that the more aware we are of the Norns and their influence in our lives, the more clearly we see significance in the events and actions of our lives. Eventually we might reach a sort of mystical state where we perceive almost everything as significant, and at that point, the deterministic conception of the Norns might make a lot of sense based on this experience.
But I’d add a caveat: in this scenario, it seems to me that the ‘significance’ we’re detecting is due to our perception of the Norns’ involvement in the details of our life: we feel that the Norns’ attention to us is the significant thing, not the minor and otherwise meaningless event itself.
In this ‘mystical’ scenario, is every meaningless event (such as dropping the toothbrush as we start to put toothpaste on it, or for that matter, *not* dropping the toothbrush) something that really was programmed by the Norns from the moment we were born? Or was the *real* programming by the Norns our own state of mind that pursues this sense of significance through the details of our lives and thus perceives our connection with the Norns? In this state of mind, the nature of each little event doesn’t matter, to us or to the Norns; it only matters because of the interpretation and significance we place on it as evidence of the Norns’ attention to us and what that means for us. In a case like this, the Norns might have ‘shaped’ us generally as a person who perceives such significance in daily events and connects it with the Norns, rather than deliberately causing every tiny event and action of our lives. Of course, you can argue that they’ve done both together.
Well, as we seem to have established, I incline toward the ‘shaping and conditioning’ theory of the Norns’ actions, and you incline toward the ‘hard determinism’ theory, and none of this can be proven or disproven. But that matters less to Heathen pragmatism than what we *do* with our beliefs, and clearly we can each form a satisfactory philosophy of life based on our own beliefs, not to mention have enjoyable and stimulating discussions about them!
And finally getting to your request: please do ask whatever you like about the afterlife, and I’ll offer my thoughts, which again will not be provable or disprovable but should stimulate a good discussion and perhaps a satisfying train of thought to shape our beliefs and actions!
In frith,
Winifred
Dear Winifred, first I wish to thank you profoundly for yet another beautiful answer. Not only is it well thought out, but you have provided such profound depth to this question. It has truly made me consider features I had not before and given me a new perspective on the matters of fatalism. I especially enjoyed reading your theories on events and perception, as you covered it in ways that I did consider, ways now that I wish to integrate into my memory as they may indeed bring me closer to the greater comprehension that I hope to acquire. While we may never know the full extent of the control that fate and Norns hold over our lives, you have provided very interesting examples that have helped shape my views on the subject.
Based on the examples you provided, it does seem rather insignificant that every single event of our lives, and the universe as whole, would be shaped by the Norns when it serves no greater goal in furthering the end of the story they have designed. For me, many of the events that I have felt were “destined” each served a specific purpose. Primarily, the purpose of these events was to shape my world view and guide me on path I walk: the path I feel the Norns have determined for me. However, I now consider if insignificant events had any bearing on this. Such as, which chair I sit on for breakfast, which toothbrush I pick to brush my teeth at night, and which shirt I wear before beginning the day. None of these events, when lacking a significant influence, seem to bear a particular influence on my path.
Thus, I can fully understand your reasoning and indeed see so much merit to this line of thinking.
Truly, thank you for sharing these theories and insights: you grace me and everyone else reading these excerpts with your knowledge and wisdom.
My next question is a long one I am afraid and it will take me some time to formulate my response, but I look forward to asking it and I am quite excited to receive your answer.
I’m glad you found my response useful, Ben, and I’m looking forward to your new question!
Ben, I’ve received, read, and appreciated your latest question about the afterlife of warriors in Valhalla and Folkvang, and I will respond to it to the best of my ability. I won’t post your whole message here because of my website policy of being apolitical, as I believe you understand, but your question is an important one and I’m not sweeping it under the rug. Would you agree with this summary of your question, to form the basis of my response here?
You’re asking about my thoughts on what one might call the ‘criteria of acceptance’ for warriors to enter into Valhalla and Folkvang. You’ve noted that the standards of ‘warrior morality’ in Viking times are quite different than the Geneva standards regarding the conduct of war today, and that in conflicts around the world these modern standards of warfare morality are being disregarded by combatants, to the extent that such warfare seems more like the ‘no holds barred’ behavior of Vikings and other raiders of those times. Yet, as you note, we are told in the old poetry that many of those unrestrained Viking warriors were lauded as heroes and awarded places in Valhalla and Folkvang.
You write: “I have long pondered on the fates of fallen warriors in the modern day. It is said that only the honorable fallen may enter these realms, but what does that mean specifically? ” I think this is the gist of your question–and likely a question that many of us wonder about. What was honorable then, many of us may not consider honorable now. Are combatants who engage in acts that are considered dishonorable today still welcomed into the Gods’ halls as they apparently were in the past? What are the ‘criteria of acceptance’ into Valhalla and Folkvang today?
Please let me know whether this is an accurate summary of your question before I proceed to respond to it, except for one item which I address below.
You also wonder whether Christian warriors are accepted into Valhalla along with Heathens. I don’t see this as the case at all, for the sake of the Christians as well as the Heathens. I think Christians would be horrified to end up in a Heathen afterlife, and would very likely simply regard that as being in their Christian Hell, not see it as a reward of any kind. Christians have a very obvious warrior ethos of their own which apparently doesn’t exclude them from their own God and their own Heaven, even though warrior behavior seems to contradict the teachings of Jesus. I leave them to sort out those contradictions themselves!
And on the Heathen side: what would be the point of accepting Christians? As I’ll get into more when I respond to your main question, I think one of the main criteria for acceptance into the Heathen warrior God-homes is loyalty and devotion to Odin or Freya–loyalty to the point of death, loyalty in spite of the risk of losing the battle, being a ‘failure’, as long as one dies in the process and dedicates one’s efforts and one’s death to one of these Deities. Christians certainly wouldn’t be loyal to our God/desses, and wouldn’t have that motivation to fight for them at Ragnarok, which is the primary motivation for collecting the warrior-ghosts into Valhalla, anyway.
I don’t have time to write more now, but I’ll watch for your response to my summary of your question and will be back later.
Dear Winifred, thank you so much for responding back with such a delightful excerpt once gained. Yes the summary you provided is accurate of the questions I am hoping to be answered. Please let me say how much I appreciate your response and once more sharing your knowledge and wisdom with me. Also, I wish to again apologize for the parts of my previous message that were unsuitable for this page. I completely understand and thank you for still answering my questions.
I wish also to know an additional feature of this subject that was not presented in your summary. In discussing the “criteria of acceptance” into the warrior realms, I have long pondered on what that acceptance may mean for modern standards of combat. For example, if modern warriors who abide by the standards of Vikings rather than the current rules of engagement in a present conflict, would they still be welcomed into the realms? If so, what does this say about modern attempts to apply morality to warfare? Are current definitions of war crimes and moral standards of conflict irrelevant?
Again, thank you for all the effort you have put into answering these deep questions of mine. I know you are pressed for time now, but please take as long as you need to. I completely understand and wish you to have a wonderful day. I look forward to your response and hope that the gods give you much joy.
Okay, so I’ll offer a train of thought here, Ben, and you can see what you think of it!
Whenever we see individuals celebrated in the old poetry who are said to be taken into Valhalla, these people are of high status, kings or chieftains or famous warriors. They are not the raff and scaff of the Viking crews raiding and pillaging, but people who in the view of their society held and earned the highest honors, based their deeds, their status, their heritage and descent, and their luck. These people were driven by their sense of honor, which was sometimes quite different than ours today, as you mentioned, but their concept of honor was very much present and motivated much of what they did.
Viking raids abroad were not motivated by honor, but by gain and by the headiness of having power over those they regarded as prey–foreigners outside the frith of their own society. Their own societies didn’t regard this behavior as dishonorable, as we would, but neither was it specifically considered honorable, as vengeance against a personal enemy would be considered honorable. It was just a practical thing that brought them profit. (Though some raids were indeed motivated by vengeance, and those were considered honorable.)
I haven’t come across any mention (though there could be some) of Valkyries ‘harvesting’ the souls of Vikings killed during raids. The Valkyries hover over fields of battle that are being fought for the sake of honor, for vengeance, for trying to raise the status, success and luck of the combatants, and they may well be there to harvest souls from both sides of the battle as acknowledgement that both sides are fighting for their own honor.
There are some passages in the old lore that say that Odin takes *all* those slain in battle every day, or the one that says he takes half and Freya takes half, whereas in other accounts it sounds like he and the Valkyries are being much more particular, choosing just a few out of the mass of combatants in each conflict. I believe that the latter is more accurate, and the title of “einherjar,” the single or unique warriors, supports that view. The Einherjar are not, really, a massed army, but rather ‘special forces’ that are individually chosen according to the criteria of Odin and the Valkyries (who are not always in agreement).
As I see it, the process is one of ‘choice’, not just a godly vacuum-cleaner sucking up the souls of everyone who’s fighting every day and spitting them out into Valhalla and Folkvang. That’s why the Valkyries (or Waelcyrige in Anglo-Saxon) are called what they are: *choosers* of the slain. They’re picky! And the ones they don’t choose go off to Hel with everyone else, where things might be pleasant and comfortable for them, or might not.
It’s those criteria you’re interested in: why does Odin choose, or direct the Valkyries to choose, one warrior and not the next one, assuming that indeed the Einherjar are chosen individually? I get the impression from your original question that you view the entry into Valhalla or Folkvang as a reward for the chosen warrior, and the old poetry often treats it that way, too. I think the poets did that to flatter their wealthy patrons with visions of the treat awaiting them after their heroic death, and to encourage the warrior spirit so chieftains would have people eager to join their war-bands. If you look at the powerful ‘Sonatorrek’ poem by that crusty old Heathen, Egil Skallagrimson—who was *not* a court-poet—that laments the deaths of his sons, you won’t see any praise of Valhalla there. He considers that Odin has stolen his “all-worthy” son from him: “Odin, not Egil, enjoys him forever.”
(I’ll stop here and continue in my next post so it’s not too long.)
(Continuing from my previous post)
I, and I think many other modern Heathens as well, look at the situation more from Odin’s perspective–he’s recruiting the warriors he needs to prepare for Ragnarok, not rewarding the wealthy patrons of poets. Odin isn’t really the type to be giving out lollipops for being a brave little boy!
Now getting into the morality aspect: first I’ll say that Odin is not really the God to look to, for the details of moral behavior. He has his own morality, which I would characterize as “The ends justify the means,” something that many of us today don’t consider to be the high ground of moral behavior even though it’s often tempting to adopt that approach.
Odin doesn’t try to justify this, but he has his reasons. As I understand it, though he knows that Ragnarok will bring about the deaths of the elder Aesir Gods and destruction of Midgard and its societies, what he wants to do is bring down the enemies that will cause that destruction so that a new cycle of the Worlds can begin, one which does not have these dire enemies looming over it. He will do what it takes to bring that about, and his choice of the Einherjar is one of the tactics he uses. (As to his own role in the arising of the enemies of the Aesir, that’s another whole can of worms!)
So let’s move on to the modern day, and the question as to whether the criteria of acceptance into Valhalla have changed. I’ll offer a scenario and a response to this question that might or might not make sense to anyone else. Odin and the Valkyries choose the Einherjar for a reason: their potential effectiveness at Ragnarok. So what is Ragnarok? Has the understanding of the nature of Ragnarok changed over time, along with so much else? And if it has, then the role of the Einherjar changes too, and hence the criteria for selecting them also have to change.
I propose this way of looking at it: Ragnarok is the symbol of a dire threat to the world, a massive change in the circumstances of living and in the things one believes and trusts. It’s as much an ‘inner’ thing as an ‘outer’ one. Various cultures and societies and locations of humans have experienced Ragnarok-equivalents many times over the centuries and millenia: effectively their own cultural world comes to a terrible end, the world they always knew before, even though the physical world continues in its existence. Though indeed there are often physical disasters too: floods, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, famine, and the like. Climate change, too. This happens all the time around the world. Sadly and awfully, it’s happening right now to various groups of people. It’s often heralded by the death of a culture hero, like Baldr for the Heathens.
Different people respond differently to these events, and their religions play a role in shaping these responses. I suggest that the role of Odin and Valhalla, and I’d say Freya and Folkvang too, and in fact all the other Deities as well, who are much involved with all this–is to prepare for such changes as these ‘cultural Ragnaroks’ bring. Changes for them–the Deities, and changes for us humans, for Heathens specifically, and for the natural world as well.
And so, the selection of the Einherjar and the Folkvang warriors needs to change, to prepare in a suitable way for the nature of whatever Ragnarok is coming next. And not only them. Odin boasts in Grimnismal 24 that Thor’s hall is the greatest of all, even larger than Valhalla, which contains fighters as well. I write some thoughts about the dwellers in that Hall in my article about Sif and the Hall she shares with Thor: https://heathensoullore.net/goddess-sif-kinship-and-hospitality/
In another article I quote a powerful poem written by modern Heathen John Mainer about Vidar, which gives a picture of a different ‘hall of waiting’ for warriors chosen by Vidar. https://heathensoullore.net/to-honor-vidar/
Frigg and her ladies have great roles to play. Tyr, through the Tyr-star that guides us over the paths of night, as the rune-poem says, points out a trustworthy path for those who would work with the Gods. All of our Deities have their teams of partners and human afterlife souls who support their work and aims in Midgard through spiritual means. They don’t remain fixed in the past, focused on things that might or might not have much relevance for today.
So, I think that the selection today of warriors for Valhalla and for Folkvang needs to take into account whatever form of ‘Ragnarok’ may be coming next. The thing is, we don’t know what shape that will take, nor what kinds of responses the Holy Ones may be preparing to deal with it. Here, I’d say, is where some trust comes in: trust that we Heathens and Odin and Freya and all the Deities can align our values and ethics to fit both the Gods’ vision and our own about what is right, as these matters play out in today’s world with all of today’s challenges and confusions.
We need to follow and live by our own values, and interact with our Holy Ones to understand their views, their actions, and their choices. And thereby we find and trust in the common ground, the frith, that unites us all. Ethics and values grow out of a ground of frith, and support that frith. The Gods expect us to accomplish this creation and maintenance of frith and the values that support it by ourselves; they don’t impose it on us as other deities do with their followers. We need to have the intelligence and goodwill to take this pursuit seriously, knowing that it’s our responsibility but that the Gods respect us for our efforts, and meet us on that path of mutual understanding.
I think, Ben, that this question you asked, and that other Heathens ask as well, arises from the root of a longing for frith among humans, and frith between humans and Deities. We want to have a sense of values and to know those values are shared with others, humans and Deities, both. By asking the questions and pursuing the answers as well as we can, we help to create that common ground of understanding among us all. So, thank you for the asking!
I realize I need to clarify a comment I made earlier, that seems to mock the rewards of Valhalla. I don’t mean to do this; rather, my point is that reward isn’t the *reason* for the existence of Valhalla or for the choice of the Einherjar, I don’t think. For Odin, the reason is preparing for Ragnarok, as I argued before, and for the Einherjar, I believe the reasons for being in Valhalla are honor and loyalty to Odin, the Aesir, and Odin’s purposes.
If the main reason for Valhalla was ‘reward,’ then the Einherjar would simply be mercenaries, not honor-bound warriors. I have more respect than to call them that!
But for warriors as for everyone else, of course rewards are welcome and appreciated, and from the images of Valhalla in the lore–ancient and modern–the warriors clearly do appreciate it!
As for the warriors in Folkvang, I simply don’t know what is happening there; there’s so little in the lore to go on, and the warrior aspect of Freya isn’t one that I know at all well. I know she takes many people into her hall, warriors and others as well, but I don’t know what her warriors do, specifically, nor do I know what criteria she uses to choose them.
One thing I wonder is whether she maybe takes warriors, not because she wants them to be warriors for her, but because she’s offering them an afterlife home as she offers to many noncombatant women and other people generally. Another possibility is that she does want them as warriors and that she and they also take part in Ragnarok.
Well, this is all very interesting and I’ve been enjoying the conversation!
Blessings to you and to all who read this…
Winifred
Dear Winifred, thank you so very much for these captivating explanations and answers! I have truly enjoyed reading your thoughts on this subject and receiving your wisdom once again.
Your answers are indeed very thoughtful and do offer a great sense of reason to their understandings. In regards to my earlier question about Christian warriors, it does indeed make much sense. I don’t truly see Christian warriors being welcomed into Valhalla or Folkvang, for, as you pointed out, they would feel welcomed existing in the realm of gods/goddesses outside of their monotheistic beliefs. Additionally, I don’t believe the gods would be comfortable with warriors in their realms who do not appreciate nor truly respect them. Thus, I feel it is more likely that Christian soldiers would most likely be sent to Hel if fallen in battle.
As for your other discussions, to be sure I understand, it seems that you speculated that the acceptance into either realm is primarily determined by the standards of the current era in which battles are fought and for the primary motivations of the warriors fighting in these battles. You have stated that each culture eventually has a “Ragnarok” of its own and the standards of acceptance into Valhalla much change in order to prepare for these culture devastations. Thus, it can be assumed that the standards of acceptance have changed for wars waged today as opposed to the Viking era. Based on this, warriors who commit modern definitions of war crimes may not be accepted into these realms after all.
Also, I am quite intrigued by the unique distinction you pointed out regarding the motives of the Viking raiders. I know that during that time, Norse warriors and seamen were drawn to pillaging the coasts of England and Europe for wealth, resources, and land to conquer. However, you have noted that not all of these motives were considered honorable, even by their standards at the time. This has opened new thoughts for me, since, if the texts that state only the “honorable” are welcomed into these halls are true, the many of the Vikings warriors who fell in battle may not have been accepted into either after all.
Thank you for this new perspective!
Also, if I may, I would like to offer my perspective on the realm of Folkvang, which you have expressed intrigue on the circumstances and events occurring within this afterlife realm. From reading about this afterlife for many years now, my understanding is this: Folkvang is something of paradise realm and place of eternal piece for warriors chosen by Freya and the Valkyries that directly serve under her instead of the All-Father.
Ironically, while most incorrectly consider Valhalla to be the Viking equivalent of the Christian heaven, which as you pointed out is not the case, it seems Folkvang is a much closer comparison by my understanding. In her realm, it is said warriors help her tend to the fields and enjoy peace and tranquility.
There are some indications as to the criteria of acceptance into this realm ruled by the great goddess. For example, as patron of the shield maiden warriors, it is was said that Freya welcomed all of them who were slain in battle into Folkvang. Because of this, I have often thought that modern female soldiers who fall in battle are most likely to be escorted by the Valkyries to Folkvang. Additionally, based on reading the various poems, Eda’s and other ancient texts, and commentaries regarding them, it appears there Freya chooses the lesser warriors slain in the battlefield. In your discussion, you described the einherjar as “special-forces” with Lord Odin choosing the greatest of warriors to enter and train at Valhalla, for Ragnarok. Based on this, it seems Freya takes in the lowly soldiers. This being the common, ordinary foot soldiers as opposed to more skilled and dangerous warriors, who the All-Father is more likely to desire in his hall to prepare and train for the coming of Ragnarok. I have even heard by some that the families of fallen soldiers can sometimes be welcomed to live amongst them under Great Freya’s rule, adding further support to this being a true warrior’s “paradise.
Based on this I suppose Folkvang is reserved for soldiers who are not seeking glory and duty, as those who enter Valhalla do, as you mentioned earlier. For example, a common foot soldiers opposed who was conscripted into service, who had no training and no real desire for war, would be taken into Folkvang, while a Navy Seal for example who is skilled in numerous forms of combat and is a veteran special forces soldier, would more likely be accepted into Valhalla if slain in battle. Based on this, I have always viewed Folkvang as something of a warriors paradise as opposed to Valhalla, where the slain chosen by great Freya enjoy peace for deeds and heroic sacrifice, while those chosen by Great Odin wish to continue the warrior’s way even in death, fulfilling the desires of glory and duty in his service that you mentioned before.
Going back to the question of morality, I feel that soldiers who commit what we term as war crimes would not be welcomed by the goddess into Folkvang. As a patron goddess of women, I can hardly see Great Freya welcoming rapists and tortures into her domain. And since the realm seems somewhat reserved for more modest and lower-ranking warriors who fall in battle, it seems rather unlikely that she would permit fallen soldiers who craved bloodshed for the sake of it and committed acts of massive cruelty against noncombatants, including genocide, such as those of the Nazi and Khmer Rogue regimes for example, into her rather peaceful sounding realm.
Based on this, perhaps morality may indeed play into the selection of fallen warriors after-all, as Great Freya may not wish for destructive and vile individuals to pollute her realm.
If possible, I would like to know your thoughts on this assessment.
Ben, I very much appreciate your depiction here of your understanding of Folkvang, and it feels right to me, as well as to you. This is an area of our beliefs that I had not yet explored in any depth, and I’m glad to have this understanding that you provide.
As you imply, the majority of warriors throughout time have been ordinary people forced to defend their homes and families, their lands and tribes, or forced by dire circumstances to find other places to live so their people could survive. Most of these warriors were very young when they started on that path–young teenagers–and were given little choice, inculcated into the warrior mindset without being offered other ways to make a living and gain respect in the eyes of their communities. In large families, some children received land or wealth, while others were left to make their own way because there wasn’t enough to go around.
It does seem very right that there be an afterlife place for them, too: one which, as you say, respects their sacrifices and courage without asking them to perpetually follow the warrior path. And one which makes room for them to continue pursuing their true motivations for fighting, namely to treasure their families and communities who join them in the afterlife, and the peaceful way of life that was their reason and reward for their fighting and sacrifices during life.
The name of Freya’s afterlife domain, Folkvang, supports your view. The “folk” part can refer either to an army, or to a folk, an ordinary, peaceful group of people united by a common culture. And the “vang” part means a field, a meadow, an area of countryside, which implies agricultural land, grazing land, and land available for foraging. Land where people can live and prosper in peace.
I suppose that, on occasions when Freya needs this, she could call for volunteers from her ‘retired’ warriors and they would support her need, but as you say, one wouldn’t regard them as full-time professional warriors as the Einherjar are.
So, thank you very much for this picture of Folkvang; I will treasure it!
I’d like to add here another note about God-Homes and afterlife locations. In the old lore, as we all know, there was much emphasis on warrior culture and the afterlife of warriors in Valhalla. But in the prose Edda, several other abodes are mentioned in connection with Odin, including Gladsheim, Vingolf, and Valaskjalf, where his high seat Hlidskjalf was said to be located. It’s not very clear; in one reference Vingolf is the hall of the Goddesses together, in another it’s one of Odin’s halls. Gladsheim, too, is in one context said to be a central location for all the Gods, in another it’s one of Odin’s places.
Actually, it all makes sense to me: the Gods and Goddesses often gather together for feasts and meetings, so why shouldn’t some of their places be considered as much gathering-places as any individual Deity’s abodes? But where I’m going with this is that I believe Odin has one or more other Halls, other than Valhalla, where people who’ve worked closely with Odin in ways other than fighting may choose to gather in the afterlife.
I see Valaskjalf in particular as one of those, named for the powers of seership, and the location of his high seat where he sees, ponders, and learns much of his wisdom–and which, it is said, he shares with Frigg. I think that people who follow Odin’s path of wisdom rather than the path of the warrior may find a good afterlife home in Valaskjalf, or in Gladsheim, or Vingolf–the Hall of Friends (vin = friend).
I also want to wrap up this comment by noting that, following the ideas of soul lore that I’ve researched and developed, I think that the souls we’re talking about here are the Ghost-souls or spirits, who are naturally drawn to the God-Homes after death. I also think that we have other souls, the Saiwalos (this is the proto-Germanic word from which our word ‘soul’ descended’). The Saiwalos, as I understand it, have their natural home in Hel. After death, our Ghost goes to a God-Home, or spends time in several of them, while Saiwalo pursues its existence in Hel, the Womb of Souls.
Anyway, thank you, Ben, for all this good and interesting discussion!
I’ll start a new comment chain in response to your message, Ben, so they don’t get too embedded. I much enjoyed this response of yours and the next one, which I’ll get to momentarily. I’m learning new things too about Ragnarok, a topic I find very interesting; this conversation is being very worthwhile!
There’s only one thing in your latest posts where I have a different viewpoint than yours, and that is on the subject of where Christians (and other non-Heathens) go after death. I believe in the reality of all the Deities, not only the Heathen ones. I was Christian (Episcopal) for a number of years and received valuable spiritual training and experiences there, as real as I’ve received within Heathendom. I’ve known people on other religious paths whose wisdom and spiritual development parallels what we can achieve on ours. I left Christianity not because I disbelieved in it, but because a stronger loyalty drew me to our God/desses. But I still maintain respect and honor for all faiths and paths, except for specific interpretations of beliefs which cause significant harm to others, which unfortunately can occur in any religion.
By the same token, I think that the afterlife arrangements for people of other faiths are their own–Christians go to their own Heaven or Hell, so do Hindus and Muslims go each to their own. Buddhists have their own complex afterlife path. Tribal peoples around the world go to be with their ancestors as they have done for countless thousands of years. Australian Aborigines enter their Dreamtime; followers of Santeria join their Loa, and so forth and so on. So in my point of view, I’m not the least concerned about Christians wandering around loose in Valhalla, Folkvang, Hel, or anyplace else of ours! I don’t think they go there; they go to their own afterlife places.
I feel strongly that, in spite of what Christians, Muslims, and others say, no God and no afterlife domain has power over other people’s God/desses and afterlife domains. Jahweh can’t grab Heathens to send to his own Hell, nor can Odin grab Christians unless in their own hearts they realize they do want to go with him, which I think sometimes happens (perhaps especially with warriors). But then they’re no longer Christians, they become Odin’s own (or Freya’s, or Frigg’s, or Thor’s, etc.). That’s how people convert from one religion to another, and that can even happen at the time of death. They switch from one jurisdiction to another, but this can happen only through free will and sufficient understanding to comprehend their choices.
I know of several Heathen shaman-type practitioners who have indeed found Christian souls lost and wandering in Hel or in the metaphysical layers of spirit-life here in Midgard. In each case I know of, these souls were terrified of being condemned to the Christian hell, and were trying to escape that fate, ending up in our realms instead. My Heathen friends were usually able to guide these souls onward to places better suited to their customary beliefs, but in some cases the souls chose to stay where they were. But those are occasional exceptions, not the general rule.
While on the subject, I’ll just mention that my spiritual explorations of our Hel-World and the souls at home there have led to quite a different picture than images of any place called ‘Hel’ usually bring up. If you’re interested, I’ve written at length about this in my articles “Hel-Dweller,” “The Soul and the Sea,” “What Happened to Heathen Saiwalo-Soul?” and my 6-part series on the “Alchemy and Ecology of Hel.”
I’ll stop here and continue in the next post.
Okay, Ben, on to my next response about Ragnarok. A number of modern Heathens I know, and I as well, consider “Ragnarok” to be a cyclical event. Some great devastation occurs that may include both human cultural devastation as well as various forms of natural disasters. The fall of the Roman Empire and of Byzantium. The Bubonic Plague in Europe. Invasions and colonizations of one conquering culture into another culture that happen around the globe. The word Ragnarok refers to the doom of the Gods, the Regin, the Rulers, but humans and Midgard are connected with their fates as well, and these kinds of disasters often involve radical changes of religion as well, for example the Native American Ghost Dance movement in response to the destruction of their religions and cultures.
I think, and I know some Heathens who agree with this, that the Ragnarok that is described so powerfully at the end of the Voluspa is an event that already happened: it describes in symbolic terms the tumultuous events of the conversion of Heathen lands and peoples to Christianity, and the years of Christian hegemony and the imposition of its imperial power. This is certainly something that affected our God/desses and religion as well as mundane life, political power, and everything else. (I write about some aspects of that time and the role of wyrd / orlog and the Norns, in my article “Webs of Luck and Wyrd: Interplays and Impacts on Events.”)
Holy Baldr was killed and went to dwell in Hel; Nanna joined him there. Njordh heads off to Vanaheim, apparently deciding to sit this one out, though his son Frey joins the Aesir forces (maybe Freya, too). The other elder male Aesir die during Ragnarok, taking their foes with them. (I assume that they, like Baldr and Nanna, go to some otherworld realm of waiting.) Much fighting of forces occurs, then a conflagration. Earth sinks under the sea, out of the light of sun and moon. There is an age, now, where silence reigns about the old things, the old ways and beliefs–they are forcibly or willingly shoved underground, into the subconscious.
But then the Earth rises again, out from the sea. Tokens of the old times are found by the younger Gods who survived Ragnarok, and presumably the Goddesses too. Baldr and presumably Nanna return. Hoenir casts the rune-tines anew. A new world arises, a new time where God/desses and Heathens renew their knowledge of each other, their ties, their customs, their beliefs. We all crawl out of the underworld, so to speak, into the light of day. The other Gods return, as Baldr does, from whatever other World they went to after their deaths. The old cycle of Ragnarok spirals around on itself and another spiral begins.
But unlike in the poem, symbolic and poetic, the old / existing world is still here, still with some issues the old Heathens dealt with plus many, many more we’ve generated in modern times. The Ragnarok that comes next may not involve hand-to-hand combat with giants and monstrous beings, wolves and phantoms from Hel. Though of course it could involve that: the issues and problems of our world could take those shapes again.
But where I’m going with this is that I think we who live in this world today can see many dangerous issues, situations, precedents developing across the board–everything from how children are influenced as they grow up today, to changing world orders, to climate change, to the fact that when life grows intolerable and impossible for them, people and animals and plants do what they have always done: try to migrate to a new and better place to live. But those places are taken now; the world is crowded and many conflicts arise.
I don’t have to go on; we’re all familiar with these lists. The point is: our next Ragnarok may require other skills in addition to those of the physical warrior. I’m sure that Odin and the other Deities are well aware of this and are taking steps accordingly, in terms of human souls they recruit or welcome to their Halls, and train to help them in the afterlife.
And in this broader picture of the roles of human Ghosts in the afterlife, I see every God/dess and God-Hall as having something to contribute. Like Thor’s huge Hall that holds the farmers, the crafts-folk, the everyday workers, the fathers and mothers supporting their families, the practical-minded and stout-hearted backbone of human life. Frigg’s Hall where she and her Ladies offer so much support, too, to the skills and graces and healing of everyday social and family life, and powerful love in all its forms. Where would we be without those? And your picture of Freya’s Folkvang fits beautifully in here, too. Tyr and his focus on law and lawful assemblies, and the power to keep them lawful and frithful. And on and on.
The point is, many new skills may be needed–really, already are needed–as the next challenges of human life and the rumblings of the next Ragnarok develop. Honorable folk of all kinds, not only warriors, will be needed–each one loyally offering the gifts they have to offer and working with the Holy Ones whose focus and skills they share. I hope that my own skills of wordcraft and idea-craft will also be useful in their own way, however they transform as I arrive in the God-realms!
That’s my picture of what cyclical Ragnarok is, and the roles of the God/desses, and our Ghosts or Spirits who can support and work with them, each of us in our own best ways, for the good of all.
…I’m quitting for the evening because severe weather is approaching and we’re preparing to hole up in our basement if necessary! Tornadoes are not uncommon around here, nor is power loss… I’ll have more to write in response later.
Dear Winifred, thank you for your response. I have so much I wish to comment on but I understand your plight and have myself preoccupied now as well.
I pray that you may be safe and that all goes well. May great Thor, Lord of the weather, protect you and your loved ones from this terrible storm.
Thank you, Ben! We did spend part of the night in the basement, listening to the tornado alarms and reports on the weather radio, but the storm passed us by without any significant harm–thanks be to Thor! I hope the same for you, and I’m most sorry for all those who experienced much more severe impacts from the rough weather that affected much of our country.
I did reply to your post about Folkvang, in the reply section rather than as a new post.
Hello Winifred!
I am so pleased that you are alright. I was worried for you and it pleases me that great Thor kept you safe.
I am sorry for responding back so late. The new semester of my studies at graduate school started this week so I have just been very busy lately.
I wish to thank you for your grand explanations, I have deeply enjoyed reading your wisdom and insight. I have learned much from it. Also, thank you very much for your kind words regarding my thoughts of Folkvang. I am please to have educated you in turn on this subject. Thank you for this insight regarding Valaskjalf! I did not previously know of this hall and it has given new opportunities and possibilities for me.
Your discussions are always beautiful and fun to read. While I may be busy for some time tending to my education, I was hoping to ask one more thing. In most of our discussions we have been questioning the various afterlifes, but there are a few have not addressed. One of them, is the realm of punishment: Nastrond.
I do not generally think of Natsrond as an exact variant of the Christian Hell. From the texts and notes by other modern believers that I have read, there are far fewer acts that are considered what the Christians would term “sins” for one to enter this horrid realm. However, it has made me wonder on the question of evil. The three acts that have traditionally been associated with punishment in Natsrond are murder, oath breaking, and adultery. But as moral standards have greatly changed since ancient times, as we discussed before, could there be other offenses deemed so terrible by the gods that they could also be sent to this realm?
Also, what interests me about Natsrond is how many Heathens perceive it. In Christianity, Christians are taught to fear Hell and seem to do everything in their power to try and avoid being sent there. However, while many in Heathenry believe in Nastrond most modern practitioners whom I have read about do not seem to share the same level or worry that they may be sent to this realm as much as other faiths who believe in realms of torment and punishment. Therefore, I was hoping to receive your insight regarding this realm. Do you not fear of being sent there for some reason? Should we all not be afraid of it and dedicate our lives to perfecting the ways in which we can avoid being sent there like many other faiths seem to do?
Again, thank you for all your help and gracing me with your knowledge and wisdom. I am so happy you are safe and that the storm is over. Praise Thor!
Ben, I’m glad to respond with thoughts about Nastrond, but have to emphasize that these are my ideas and may or may not be entirely in agreement either with ancient or modern Heathens!
In my understanding of Heathen values and ethics, and of how our pursuit of these relates to metaphysical realms and the afterlife, I see much less emphasis on “punishment” than others might see. There was great emphasis in ancient Heathen times on “vengeance,” and to the modern mind there may be little difference between the two. I think there are subtle differences, however, that have metaphysical consequences. I write more about this in my article “Threads of Wyrd and Scyld,” in the section “Step 2: Paying your Shild.”
To put it very briefly, vengeance is meant to rebalance a situation where one’s honor and hamingja have been damaged by someone else’s deeds. Wergild can serve as such a rebalancing mechanism, where the wergild reinstates the lost hamingja and honor by its intrinsic value. Blood vengeance, though obviously problematic, was valued more for the reinstatement of their concept of honor—“honor has been satisfied” by a duel or by winning a fight—than it was considered actual punishment.
We can see this is true by understanding that to the old Norse, secretive killing of someone was defined as murder and was considered dishonorable no matter the circumstances. If ‘punishment’ was sufficient to reinstate honor and hamingja, it wouldn’t matter if the perpetrator was punished by being secretly murdered–but it did matter, very much. No honor was gained thereby, but only dishonor. Honor could only be regained by honorable vengeance, not punishment by any means. (I am NOT suggesting that these particular notions of honor should rule us today–there are huge and obvious problems here; I’m just trying to hone in on conceptual distinctions between vengeance and punishment in elder times.)
Punishment such as imprisonment could not serve the metaphysical purposes of vengeance: imprisonment reinstates nothing, gives nothing back to those who have lost hamingja and honor by the crime. Vengeance, especially in the form of imposing wergild, is an *act* or a deed that has results within a Heathen metaphysical view of things. Punishment, especially as implemented by imprisonment in Midgard or in an afterlife world of punishment, is not a deed in a metaphysical sense; it is a negative state of being that has no positive results for any of the people involved. Obviously, it does prevent the perpetrator from committing more crimes, but I’m speaking of metaphysical acts and consequences here. Again, please note that I am not at all advocating vengeance, I’m simply clarifying some elder-times metaphysical principles!
For me, this idea carries over into concepts of the afterlife. Honestly: what is the *point* of punishing people in perpetuity in the afterlife? It achieves nothing. I realize that this concept is used in many religions to scare people into behaving themselves according to the religion’s ethics. But let’s look at this as Heathens: is behaving a certain way, just because you’re scared of what will happen to you in the afterlife if you don’t, really consistent with a Heathen worldview, values, way of life?
To me, it is not: we should not be motivated by fear, but by aspirations. Namely, we want positive reinforcement (aspirations, honor, reputation) rather than negative reinforcement (fear of punishment) to power the virtuous Heathen life. I do think that if we look at all the old poetry we’ll see that this perspective is, indeed, a truly Heathen one. Ancient Heathen heroes are not motivated by fear, but by aspirations, by the pursuit of what was, to them, honor and glory, a shining reputation, status in their community, and all the rewards that come with them. And, importantly, hamingja and luck, as well. The rewards meant much more than the threat of punishment. If Beowulf did everything that he did out of fear of punishment if he didn’t, would the old Heathens have revered him as a hero? Or would we?
I think that the imposition of punishment is very much more a Christian thing than a Heathen thing. Christian life in medieval times was full of rules governing every tiny aspect of life, and punishments for disobeying them (even unwittingly). Which doesn’t mean there was no punishment in Heathen life–of course there was. But for smaller transgressions the punishment was a lessening or loss of the respect and status, the honor and glory, of the perpetrator. For the worst transgressions, it was being cast out as an outlaw, or being killed. It wasn’t being locked up forever in some awful place, in Midgard or in the afterlife. What they were really doing was very practical: reducing the person’s influence on the community, in cases of lesser misdeeds, and removing the person from the community entirely, for greater misdeeds. They were not simply inflicting punishment for the sake of punishment.
Do I think there are consequences for wrongdoing, in this life and the afterlife? Yes, I do, but I think it is the Norns and the Well of Wyrd that impose those consequences, not an afterlife place of punishment. Evil deeds bring evil consequences, sometime, some way. Unworthy deeds lack significance; they don’t matter, they are nothing, and if our life consists of unworthy deeds or no deeds of worth at all, then it counts for nothing, it is meaningless, we lay no layers in the Well of Wyrd. This is what the old Heathens were most afraid of. I think the ultimate consequence for the worst of misdeeds and failures-to-act in Heathenism is *erasure*: it is Wyrd and the Deities and posterity ignoring that person and that life out of existence, not endless, pointless punishment.
So what about Nastrond? And Niflhel, where it’s said that “men die out of Hel into Niflhel?” Well, Nastrond is the ‘strand or beach of corpses.’ They’re dead. People in Hel aren’t dead; they’re not ‘alive’ in Midgard terms, but they have existence, and they interact with the living in Midgard. I don’t believe in the gloomy portrayal of everyone in Hel that Snorri and other poets and writers gave us; I think that it was overly influenced by Christianity and by the literary style of moral allegories used at that time. And for that matter, just influenced by what physical graves and burials look like: wet, cold, muddy, miserable, decaying, horrible. Hel isn’t a physical place, and it isn’t the analog of the grave, either. And it’s not a place of punishment; it’s the place of the ancestors, the natural residence of souls / Saiwalos.
Nastrond is somewhere else, something else; it’s not the same as Hel. It’s the place of corpses, where even souls are dead and decaying. I don’t, honestly, put that much credence in it, myself. But if it does exist, those soul-corpses are what happens when we live life after life in total worthlessness, not achieving or trying to achieve or even dreaming of achieving anything worthwhile by any measure of worthiness. Where we care for nothing and want to care for nothing, not even ourselves. Where we empty ourselves of all good and choose paths of ill and harm and ugliness and poison and debasement solely for their own sakes, not even with the mistaken notion that they will lead to some kind of good.
If Nastrond does exist, I think that only the ultimate levels of evil or abysmal and irreparable unworthiness would send souls there to decay, not human weaknesses like adultery or oath-breaking. Those have their consequences, to be sure, and those consequences must be endured and repaid, but not as a corpse in Nastrond…
There may be a number of people, at any given point of time, who are living in that kind of state in Midgard. But I have my doubts that they persist in these ways life after life after life–assuming that reincarnation does occur–and never, ever, learn anything from experiencing these lives in Midgard, any learning or experience that drags them out of that state into at least a slightly better one. There is a great deal of hard learning that occurs in Midgard lives, without needing to resort to entire afterworlds devoted to perpetual punishment.
Oath-breaking, adultery, and murder received plenty of punishment in Midgard, for that matter, among people whose lives and wellbeing really depended on their community and on their reputation in their community. The fear of Midgard-consequences for one’s misbehavior is a very valid one that can serve to prevent such misdeeds for many. If one is motivated by true honor and worthiness–in the eyes of one’s community, the Deities, and Heathens in general–then I don’t see the need for any additional motivation from fear of Nastrond and the like.
I want to talk more about “dying out of Hel into Niflhel” but I’ve written enough for today! I’ll be back again soon….
Winifred,
First of all I hope you and yours are okay after the storm hit! I was just reading the conversation between you and Ben and it drew me in. For Ragnarok, I agree that it is symbolic to the conversion period as well (I don’t believe the Deities can “die”). As for the Valholl subject this has also been something that I have pondered from time to time. If I may, would it be alright to make just a couple of brief comments to Ben on this page about the “acceptance into Valholl” subject based on some research and personal opinion? Of course it will be professional.
Also on a different note, as many Heathens today have loved ones whom are of a different faith (Christianity first comes to mind) how do you feel about Ghost interaction once Heathens enter the God Realms and Christians go to Heaven? As you and I have talked about before of Heathen Ghosts being able to travel to multiple different Heathen Deity Homes(as long as they’ll have you) I am curious on what your thoughts are about this. Thank you so much for your time once more!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
Jaques–I’m glad if you and Ben want to discuss subjects together on this site; please go ahead if you both want to! I know you’re both well aware of the requirements for civil discourse, as you’ve both already demonstrated in your posts here.
As for interacting with Christians and other faiths in the afterlife: in my understanding, the issue doesn’t lie with us, but with them–if there are any issues. There’s nothing in Heathen belief, as I see it, that would interfere with our wish to interact with kin and friends wherever they might be in the afterlife: the wish to be with kinfolk in the afterlife comes through loud and clear in so much of the ancient lore. For example, the Heathen king or duke Radbod of Frisia. The tale goes that he was willing to be baptized for political reasons, but as he was stepping into the font he asked the bishop whether he would see his kinfolk in the Christian heaven. On being told no, they could not be there, he refused to be baptized, saying he’d rather be with his kinfolk in Hel than in heaven by himself. (Note that there is no mention of Valhalla for this Heathen warrior-king, in this non-Norse context, only Hel as the place of the ancestors where all Heathens go. I have more to write about this subject, sometime when I have time!)
Here is what I think: the afterlife is a state of mind, if you will–a matter of perception, as is so much of our life here in Midgard, as well. Strict Christians who’ve been taught all their lives that “there is nothing else other than Christian Heaven and Hell” (or followers of other absolutist religious teachings about the afterlife)…these people are, once they arrive in their heaven or hell, simply unable to perceive other souls and other surroundings that don’t correspond to what they’ve been taught to expect. They are blinded to other possibilities.
I perceive the afterlife of our Ghosts (all Ghosts) not as a fixed state with physical-seeming surroundings and beings, not as a state that limits us in the same way that physical surroundings limit our physical bodies to being in one, fixed place. I see our Ghosts existing as amorphous, fluid, multidimensional states of being that can perceive and experience multiple layers of Being at once.
We can experience being in several God-Halls at once–these God-Halls being themselves amorphous states of being that can interleave or inter-layer themselves and shift around to different ‘places’ and contexts. The same thing with our Deities: we can be in a state of communion with more than one of them at once, in different ‘places’ or states of being at once. This is how our Deities are, too: not limited the way physical beings are. Not required to be “this-or-that,” “here-or-there,” but able to be “both-or-all” at will. They are much greater, more multidimensional and flexible than our Ghosts are, but it is a matter of scale rather than being different in our very natures. Our Ghosts share the nature of the God/desses, but at a smaller scale.
I think that the ability to deal with and make full use of this amorphous quality of being and perception is something that happens over time for Ghosts. At first, I think, a ‘young’ Ghost in its first few rounds of afterlife (after being reborn and living several lifetimes in Midgard) perceives and reacts as though it is living in a version of the physical world, with the physical world’s characteristics and limitations. This is how we get our tales and perceptions of the afterlife–from younger Ghosts who’ve been there and then reincarnated, but are still focused on perceiving things the way we do here in Midgard.
After several lives, or after being in the Heathen afterlife for a long extent of ‘time,’ the Ghost gradually becomes aware of this more amorphous, less limiting state of being and perception and is able to take advantage of its opportunities for multidimensional existence. At some point in its development over multiple lives, I think the Ghost feels no more need to reincarnate and focuses more on its state of multidimensional Being and its interactions with other beings in the same state.
That multidimensional existence can indeed include interacting with Ghosts of people who followed other religions or beliefs in life. These other people are living in their own afterlife worlds of belief and perception, and their ability to perceive and interact with Ghosts in different afterlife worlds than theirs depends on how much flexibility of perception they have developed. If their religious beliefs are very strict, they may either not perceive our Ghosts at all, or if they do perceive them, they’ll perceive them as being in some version of “Hell” and will not want to, or be able to, go anywhere near such Ghosts.
There’s a short, very readable Christian book by C.S. Lewis that can actually offer some insight on this subject if one reads it with a Heathen mindset: “The Great Divorce.” (The ‘divorce’ here is that between Christian Heaven and Hell.) In this metaphorical tale, the people who are in ‘Hell’ are actually not separated from Heaven and from the souls and angels who populate Heaven: they are simply unable to perceive them, and they suffer from their self-imposed blindness. We as Heathens can take this general idea and extend it to other afterlife worlds or domains, with the idea that non-Heathen Ghosts may well perceive and interact with Heathen Ghosts, and vice versa, as long as both Ghosts are not limited by strict beliefs about who belongs in which afterlife.
All of the afterlife domains and states of being as described in all the religions exist. Whether or not we can interact with them depends on the development of our perceptions and state of being, which in turn depends upon our spiritual maturity, our wisdom, our great-heartedness, our openness and generosity of spirit and of mind, our tendency toward frith and our willingness to relate to others in frithful ways.
It also depends on our discernment, part of the development of our wisdom, because some afterlife beings and places can be dangerous and worse than dangerous. Or simply unworthy of relating to–without any worthwhile qualities or values, and without any benefit to ourselves or to them. Some places are simply wastelands, and if those who dwell there cannot perceive us or do not care to, we can be of no benefit to them, or they to us…at least, not while in the afterlife. There are always other possibilities that can develop during reincarnation in Midgard.
Dear Winifred,
Thank you for your incredible wisdom and insight! Your words have brought so much warmth to me once again and I appreciate it so much. Being a devout Heathen I sometimes get waves of worry that I wont be able to see certain loved ones who are Christian once our Ghosts depart for the afterlives and I believe what you said as well about being able to interact with them regardless of their afterlife destinations.
Before I address Ben in my next comment submission here, I was also curious if you could help me get in contact with one of your Shamanistic friends you had mentioned before in your conversation with Ben?
If not I understand. Thank you so much Winifred!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
Hello Ben,
I’m Jacques, you’ve probably seen some of my questions here on Winifreds site. I was reading the conversation between you two the other night and I wanted to share a little bit of my personal perspective which has some scholarly input on the “acceptance into Valholl” subject ( I am not a scholar, I mean from readings as well as my personal opinion) because I too have pondered the same thing! Here it goes.
This first part at least I think some Heathens would agree with: I think a huge part of getting accepted to Valholl or any of Odin’s halls is going to based on building a relationship with him. There are bits and bobs in the old tales that mention people getting into Valholl without specifically being killed in combat as well-but they were devoted to Odin.
Another thing that I have wondered on the same subject is: What about the warriors who were dedicated to Odin and spent their lives fighting but never fell in combat? If they were close to him and of course as long as he is willing, maybe they would be granted entry even if they died of old age. I believe its a possibility and would love to read your thoughts about it (Winifred and Ben).
Again this is just my opinion/beliefs! I just wanted to contribute in some way as like I said before it crosses my mind from time to time too. Thank you to you both Winifred and Ben!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques