Note: Since I often give long replies to questions here and this page is getting pretty full, I’ve started turning my longer replies into articles and posting them on my website. After some time has passed for people to read the responses here, I’m deleting those responses and putting a link to the relevant article as my new response to the reader’s question. The reader’s original question remains on this page. So you can still read my response to the reader’s question: just follow the link that I give.
I’m glad to respond here to questions of general interest about Heathen spirituality and practice, which is the focus of my work and my website. However, unfortunately I don’t have the stamina to respond to personal requests, to run a prayer list, perform ceremonies, offer personal counseling, and the like. Nor will I address any political issues. Politics is important, but in today’s fractured and stressful world we all need to have some places that are politics-free zones, where we can focus on other important things. This website is one of them! So comments and requests on all of the topics I just listed will not be posted.
But by all means, ask your questions about Heathen spirituality: I enjoy them and enjoy responding to them, and I think other viewers on my website do likewise. These questions often stimulate new directions of thought and writing for me, and I thank you for that!
My role in Heathenry is as a writer, scholar, and practitioner of Heathen spirituality, theology, philosophy, rather than serving as a gythja, godwoman, clergy, counselor, or giver of pastoral care. I wish I could do everything, but I can’t! What I try to offer in my books and website is guidance for those who wish it, so people can learn to nurture and care for their own souls and for the souls of others. However much or little spiritual help we are able to access, in the end it all comes down to this: We ourselves must be the foremost caretakers of our own souls and of our relationships with our Holy Ones. With my writing, I hope to help people achieve this.
In frith,
~Winifred~
Winifred,
I’ve just finished reading both Soul Lore books, Wandering on Heathen Ways, and Oaths, Shild, Frith, Luck and Wyrd. Your work has changed my life and given me so many answers to questions I have been trying to solve for a couple years now(putting pieces together).Thank so much for that! But I still have questions..
I’m so glad my writings are helpful to you! If you have more questions you’re welcome to post them here and I’ll do my best to respond. Thank you for your good words!
Winifred
I just wanted to let you know how amazing your work is. Your website alone has such a wealth of knowledge and helpful information (I’m going to be using your Yule blot ritual shortly). Thank you for this website, first of all. Secondly, your books are the epitome of scholarly Heathen research and are exactly what I have been searching for. There are myriad intro to Heathenry/Asatru books in existence but very few advanced ones that delve deeper into the practice, beliefs, and philosophical aspects.
I have purchased the kindle version of “Heathen Soul Lore Foundations” and a hard copy of “Wandering on Heathen Ways”. You are such a fantastic writer and your work is never boring or dry, even when exploring such complex concepts in such detail and depth. I want to thank you for contributing so much amazing work to the Heathen community and the world in general. You are a treasure.
Best wishes and much love to you, Winifred.
Ellen Marie, your praise is very heartwarming–thank you! I write about what is meaningful to me, write from heart and souls as well as mind, and it’s so rewarding to know that there are other Heathens who also find these things as meaningful as I do. I feel like there are many people out there, like you and other commenters here and many others, whom I don’t know personally, but when our minds and souls are in touch through my writing we become friends in spirit. To me, this website and my books are both a temple and a spiritual home; what I write is my worship, my gift to the Holy Ones as well as to Heathens here in Midgard. It is lovely to be able to share this with people around the world!
Winifred
Winifred,
Hello again! I have a couple of questions that I would love to get your opinion on- I have been thinking about them for quite some time. I am relatively new to Heathenry so I apologize if they seem silly!
Do you think it’s okay to Blot to certain deities during the holidays even though you aren’t particularly close to them?
If you are close to more than one deity which a lot of Heathens are, do you think your Ghost could possibly travel easily to each of their halls as long as they’re willing?
Thank you for your time!
With utmost respect,
Jacques
I gave a long answer to this question of Jaques and another related one. To keep this Questions and Comments page to manageable lengths, I combined my responses into an article and moved it to this page on my website: https://heathensoullore.net/thoughts-on-the-afterlife-of-the-ghost/ Please head over there if you’d like to read it!
Winifred
Thank you for your input! That was great!
On the subject of Ghost reincarnation- do you think that it has the option to reincarnate whenever ready as you said or that it will do that in time no matter what? Or can our Ghost (Gods willing) continue to reside in their halls?
Thank you again!
Very respectfully,
Jacques
I gave a long answer to this question of Jaques and another related one. To keep this Questions and Comments page to manageable lengths, I combined my responses into an article and moved it to this page on my website: https://heathensoullore.net/thoughts-on-the-afterlife-of-the-ghost/ Please head over there if you’d like to read it!
Winifred,
Thank you for your wonderful feedback! I have another question and would love your opinion: How do you feel about silent prayers to the Deities when it comes to personal “one on one” devotion? I’ve heard some disagree with it which seems strange.
Thank you again! I truly appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
It does indeed seem strange to me, Jaques, that some people would disagree with silent, one-on-one devotion, but I see no need to be constrained by any such opinions! Why should anyone try to tell other people how not to go about their devotions? Now, as to suggestions for pursuing one’s devotions, I have a number of those on my website, very much including one-on-one and silent devotions. In particular, there are my articles on “Heathen Contemplation,” “The Great Gift,” and “Earth, Water, Wind and Fire,” among others.
There are any number of examples in the sagas and other old writings of people going one-on-one with our Deities and friendly spirits, though I don’t feel like looking up all the references at the moment. Odin comes to people privately and makes bargains with them. A devotee of Thor went off privately to the ocean shore to beg Thor’s help with fishing when his group was starving, and Thor sent a whale that beached itself. When a man who had been personally devoted to Frey died, Frey kept the man’s burial mound always free of snow and frost so that ‘nothing would come between them’–between the man’s spirit in his mound, and Frey the God of good seasons. Though not much is written about these, there were surely frequent prayers, both formal and informal, given by folks at home–housewives, elders, maidens, anyone–to their chosen Goddesses, Gods, Disir and Alfar, landwights, etc, for help and support. Far into Christian times crypto-Heathen folk maintained secluded frithyards, nooks and crannies in rocks for offerings, offerings at sacred wells and trees, and more, as we can see from many laws and church rules that forbade these things. Especially after ‘official’ conversion to Christianity, Heathens who maintained some of the old ways would have had to keep their words and actions relating to worship very private and silent, but they didn’t give them up. In Germany, Frau Holle and other Goddesses remained in folk-memory and folk practice through the centuries, and devotions to them were based on household and personal practices rather than formal group ceremonies. She is still a very popular figure in Germany.
As I understand it, forms of worship among Heathens (and other old Pagans) across many lands and many centuries ranged through the entire gamut from ‘high church’ public sacrifices and feasts, to specialized group observances such as those of warbands and mystery or priestly cults, to family and household observances, to personal and private devotions and offerings. I suggest not to concern yourself about other people’s opinions, but to pursue your own devotions as you and your Holy Ones see fit!
In frith,
Winifred
Just as another example, Jaques: throughout the ages people, women especially, have prayed to their Gods and especially Goddesses for conceiving a child, and for safe childbirth. These were certainly private, one-on-one prayers, often silent I’m sure. Another example is prayers for the safety of oneself or for loved ones who are going into battle or on an ocean voyage. My article “Matrons and Disir” talks about many such examples of personal prayer devoted to these Goddesses / demi-Goddesses / Spirits, as shown by hundreds of votive stones placed by their devotees in thanks for prayers answered.
Winifred,
I hope you are doing well! I wanted to ask you if you had any recommendations for books about how to write Runes?
Thank you for your time!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
Greetings, Jaques!
As I’m sure you know, there are a great many books about runes, and their usefulness depends on what you want to do with the runes and the context in which you want to do it. For example, divination and / or magic, and then what type of magic. There are also controversies about some of the books because of the views or reputations of their authors, even though their expertise may be acknowledged.
For myself, I like to go back to the basics: studying the various rune poems and the old runic inscriptions, the verses about the runes at the end of the Havamal, and so forth, and then do a lot of meditation and practice of my own. Experiment and see what works for me.
A couple of books useful for this are Ann Groa Sheffield’s “Long Branches: Runes of the Younger Futhark,” and Stephen Pollington’s “Rudiments of Runelore.” Both are based on solid scholarship but are readable and interesting. It’s also worth keeping up with new scholarship and discoveries by searching the internet for news on these topics, and perhaps following up with some of the references quoted.
A website that is based on Pollington’s translation and information is worth looking at, though it only discusses the Anglo Saxon Rune Poem: https://www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/written-and-spoken-old-english/old-english-alphabet-2/the-anglo-saxon-rune-poem/
A Wiki website has texts of all the old rune poems in original languages and translations, which is useful: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Rune_poems
One approach you could take is to use these as source materials, and then take the approach that I outline in my article “The Mood of the Runes.” With this approach you’re essentially making the runes your own: learning what there is to know about them intellectually, but then internalizing that knowledge, combining it with your own unique experiences, insights, purposes and goals, and thus growing your own approach.
An additional aspect is to ask one or more of our Deities to work with you on this project, teach and guide you. It could be Odin, of course, but it doesn’t have to be. Heimdall-Rig is a teacher of runes, too, and any of our Deities can do the same, each in their own way. I’ve learned much on this subject from Frigg, in a non-intellectual, even a non-verbal way, through meditative visions and intuitions.
Your Godly runic teacher(s) might step forth not so much because they’re acknowledged ‘experts’ on runes, but more because of how you want to *use* the runes and how they can teach that–teach how the runes can be applied based on their and your common interests, knowledge and skills. Freya has a lot to teach about using the runes for certain forms of magic and seidhr, for example, or the runes can be used to explore some of the mysteries lying in Mimir’s Well. Frigg and her ladies, or Sif, can teach use of the runes for homemaking and relationships, Eir for healing, Tyr or Thor for manifesting the runes in strong actions, etc, etc.
This teaching usually happens through intuitions, insights, and inspiration, and the use of a rune-journal is an important part of the process. Another thing I’ve found through meditation on each of the runes individually is that different Deities may teach us about different runes, as I write about in my article on Vor, for example. In fact, for me it seems like each rune has its own Godly teacher, though of course one Deity may teach about several. And even that is personal: for example, the rune Gebo, giving, might be taught to different people by different Deities depending on how each person ‘gives’ in their individual lives, how they contribute, support, offer, guide, heal–however each person’s ‘giving’ is shaped. Different Deities, and people, give in different ways. Same for each of the other runes. Likewise, you might well find that multiple Deities can teach you about each individual rune, from different perspectives.
For me, the most essential process for learning runelore is to undertake meditations on each one, first reading its rune-poem(s) and then keeping an open mind about what might come to you during meditation. I like to use meditative writing for this: just enter into meditation, then write in your journal whatever comes to mind without analyzing or organizing it until later, after the session is done. Each rune should be meditated upon multiple times to allow for different perspectives and insights. There’s a great deal to be learned from this, and your lore-hunter Hugr and Ghost souls will be of great help!
The approach I suggest here is a lot of work, I know–even more work than following some system that’s already laid out for you in a book or by a teacher. But it’s real and it goes deep, and it’s yours!
May the Gods speed your runing!
Winifred
Greetings, Winifred!
It is an honor to get to know you and I hope the Norns have blessed you with much joy as we continue forward into this new year. I deeply admire your work as I too possess a great passion for philosophy and long to understand the world. In large part of this I have frequently prayed to the All-Father, Frigg, and the other great deities of wisdom and they have truly given me such great rewards I can never repay. However, I was hoping to ask a question that I feel would best come from a philosopher such as yourself, something I long to truly be. And please let me say I found your excerpt on heathen philosophy to be absolutely beautiful and radiating with truth as far as my eyes could see. Truly, you have been blessed by the gods to carry such wisdom and understanding.
If possible, I was hoping to ask a few questions that may seem a little deep. They are in regard to certain beliefs of heathen faith regarding the gods and the afterlife. For a long time now I have had a deep pondering regarding some of these beliefs from a philosophical perspective and was hoping for your input, if possible. I feel by better understanding these questions I can better understand the world and truly set myself down on the path of becoming an enlightened philosopher.
Ben, thank you for your kind words! I’m always glad to hear from others who take an interest in Heathen philosophy, as I do myself. Deep questions are the best kind of questions, and I’ll be more than happy to consider yours about the Gods and the afterlife to the best of my ability. I’ll look forward to reading your questions.
Ben, just an additional note about Heathen philosophy: you might enjoy the latest article I posted just a week or two ago, called “Kvasir and the Fermentation of Wisdom.”
https://heathensoullore.net/kvasir-and-the-fermentation-of-wisdom/
Dear Winifred, thank you for your kind words as well and for sharing this knowledge with me. I will be sure to look over it and take it all to heart.
For my first question, I was hoping to ask a very strong question that has been asked since the dawn of civilization. It relates to the concept of fate. While my area of expertise in philosophy is focused mainly on ethics and political philosophy when it comes to metaphysics, I have always been a firm fatalist, and I have truly come to believe that certain key events in my life were predetermined.
However, I have long pondered on the extent that fate holds over all of us. The power of the Norns is unfathomable as they decide even the fate of the gods and goddesses themselves. However, I must wonder to what extent they control our lives. In philosophy, standard fatalism holds that while certain events in our lives have been predetermined since the universe began, there is still, at the very least, the possibility of free will, and that we are capable of making our own choices at the very least to random mundane events. For example, the Ancient Greek philosophy of stoicism, which I have come to deeply admire and adore, argues that while the events surrounding us are fated to be, our emotions and reactions to them are of our own accord. Determinism, however, is a far more extreme philosophy of destiny, as it argues that all of events, whether mundane or grand are predetermined.
I have pondered this for a long time but have yet to reach a definitive answer. Have the Norns determined everything about our existence? When they weave the thread of destiny, do they weave every event that surrounds us? Do they decide both our actions and thoughts? To what extent are we our own individuals? Are our thoughts and beliefs predetermined programmings? Do they decide what food we eat everyday, what clothes we wear, and what games we play? In Heathen philosophy, does free will exist or are all events and life forms but things determined by the power of three goddesses of destiny?
If possible, I would love to hear your answer to such a question asked and considered by philosophers throughout history.
A very good question indeed, Ben, and as it happens, I am currently working diligently on a book about this very topic: “Orlog Yesterday and Today: The Shaping of the Norns.” It’s going to take me a little while to condense my thoughts from the book into a shorter response to you, though! I always have trouble giving short answers to anything, and this topic is an especially dense one. So give me a little time to put that together, and I’ll get back to you here.
But here are a few teasers, which I’ll elaborate on later:
1) “Fate” as understood in the classical cultures of Greece and Rome certainly has similarities with the Heathen Germanic ideas of orlog and wyrd, but there are some very significant differences as well, which shift the ground of discussion about the nature of determinism in profound and interesting ways. In my view, it’s of vital importance to use each of these words–fate, orlog, wyrd–judiciously when pursuing a philosophical discussion about them, because they do not mean exactly the same things and hence our understanding of their implications differs depending on which concept–and culture–we’re focusing on.
2) In a very brief nutshell, I do not think that Germanic concepts of wyrd and orlog equate to hard determinism, at all. I argue that orlog is more a ‘conditioning’ force than a deterministic one: it lays down the conditions or parameters within which our choices and deeds must take place, but it neither determines those choices in advance, nor controls how we make them in the present, within the boundaries of those baseline conditions. Not only that, but we ourselves play a big role in setting those conditions, based on our past choices and deeds. The Norns may supervise the *process* by which orlog is laid in the Well, but the *substance* of what is laid is, to an extent, the result of our own choices and deeds, and these layers of orlog then proceed to ‘condition’ our future fields of choice and action.
There’s a big exception to what I say here though: in ancient Germanic thought, orlog and wyrd were most often used in the context of one’s fated time and mode of death. And in their minds, that was indeed determined by the Norns. But for all of one’s life up until the circumstances resulting in one’s death, there is no indication that every little mundane detail was decided and set in place by the Norns, though big life-changing events certainly show their hands at work. The circumstances of birth and death are determined by the Norns, but what happens in between those points in time is influenced by many factors and many beings, and provides a certain amount of space for the exercise of free will. (Now, whether our own society makes that exercise of free will difficult or impossible is another matter: we can’t blame the Norns for everything!)
From my limited reading of Stoic philosophy–and I might change my mind if I read more!–I think that much of it is compatible with Heathen modes of thought, more so than many other forms of philosophy. I find it a useful field of comparative study for Heathen philosophers and certainly recommend it! One of my articles I think demonstrates a mindset that’s quite consistent with Stoicism as I understand it: https://heathensoullore.net/a-heathen-meaning-of-ordeal/
I don’t know whether you’ve read this article of mine, but it discusses some aspects of orlog that might be of interest: https://heathensoullore.net/images-of-orlay/
I’ll get back to you again soon!
Winifred
Dear Winifred, thank you so very much for such a thoughtful and captivating answer. I enjoyed reading on your perspective regarding the extent of fate in our lives. For me, I have long pondered this question and I have felt that perhaps knowing the extent to which the Norns control our lives is beyond our full comprehension and that we must accept that most if not all of the details of our lives were by their design. However, your reasoning is quite compelling and well thought out. When you finish writing your book I would love to read it and learn more.
Also, thank you for your articles, I enjoyed reading them. For the second one, you are indeed correct as it shares many key philosophical tenets with stoic ideology. Stoicism emphasizes living in the moment and accepting whatever fate determines for one’s life. It teaches us to not be dominated by the past or to fear about the future, instead living in the moment and being free from attachments. This not to say one should not care about others or personal possessions, but to accept that times flows in one direction and that all we have will eventually fade, which we should accept and embrace to live a virtuous and happy life.
I see many parallels between this and Heathen philosophy’s lessons on life and living in harmony with nature.
If it is alright, I would like to hear your wisdom regarding another topic that I have long pondered but have failed to reach a definitive answer too? This one relates to the afterlife, for which I share a deep fascination of.
I’ve posted my response to this question as an article, which you can find following this link:
https://heathensoullore.net/the-norns-determinism-or-influence/
Dear Winifred, first I wish to thank you profoundly for yet another beautiful answer. Not only is it well thought out, but you have provided such profound depth to this question. It has truly made me consider features I had not before and given me a new perspective on the matters of fatalism. I especially enjoyed reading your theories on events and perception, as you covered it in ways that I did consider, ways now that I wish to integrate into my memory as they may indeed bring me closer to the greater comprehension that I hope to acquire. While we may never know the full extent of the control that fate and Norns hold over our lives, you have provided very interesting examples that have helped shape my views on the subject.
Based on the examples you provided, it does seem rather insignificant that every single event of our lives, and the universe as whole, would be shaped by the Norns when it serves no greater goal in furthering the end of the story they have designed. For me, many of the events that I have felt were “destined” each served a specific purpose. Primarily, the purpose of these events was to shape my world view and guide me on path I walk: the path I feel the Norns have determined for me. However, I now consider if insignificant events had any bearing on this. Such as, which chair I sit on for breakfast, which toothbrush I pick to brush my teeth at night, and which shirt I wear before beginning the day. None of these events, when lacking a significant influence, seem to bear a particular influence on my path.
Thus, I can fully understand your reasoning and indeed see so much merit to this line of thinking.
Truly, thank you for sharing these theories and insights: you grace me and everyone else reading these excerpts with your knowledge and wisdom.
My next question is a long one I am afraid and it will take me some time to formulate my response, but I look forward to asking it and I am quite excited to receive your answer.
Dear Winifred, thank you so very much for these captivating explanations and answers! I have truly enjoyed reading your thoughts on this subject and receiving your wisdom once again.
Your answers are indeed very thoughtful and do offer a great sense of reason to their understandings. In regards to my earlier question about Christian warriors, it does indeed make much sense. I don’t truly see Christian warriors being welcomed into Valhalla or Folkvang, for, as you pointed out, they would feel welcomed existing in the realm of gods/goddesses outside of their monotheistic beliefs. Additionally, I don’t believe the gods would be comfortable with warriors in their realms who do not appreciate nor truly respect them. Thus, I feel it is more likely that Christian soldiers would most likely be sent to Hel if fallen in battle.
As for your other discussions, to be sure I understand, it seems that you speculated that the acceptance into either realm is primarily determined by the standards of the current era in which battles are fought and for the primary motivations of the warriors fighting in these battles. You have stated that each culture eventually has a “Ragnarok” of its own and the standards of acceptance into Valhalla much change in order to prepare for these culture devastations. Thus, it can be assumed that the standards of acceptance have changed for wars waged today as opposed to the Viking era. Based on this, warriors who commit modern definitions of war crimes may not be accepted into these realms after all.
Also, I am quite intrigued by the unique distinction you pointed out regarding the motives of the Viking raiders. I know that during that time, Norse warriors and seamen were drawn to pillaging the coasts of England and Europe for wealth, resources, and land to conquer. However, you have noted that not all of these motives were considered honorable, even by their standards at the time. This has opened new thoughts for me, since, if the texts that state only the “honorable” are welcomed into these halls are true, the many of the Vikings warriors who fell in battle may not have been accepted into either after all.
Thank you for this new perspective!
Also, if I may, I would like to offer my perspective on the realm of Folkvang, which you have expressed intrigue on the circumstances and events occurring within this afterlife realm. From reading about this afterlife for many years now, my understanding is this: Folkvang is something of paradise realm and place of eternal piece for warriors chosen by Freya and the Valkyries that directly serve under her instead of the All-Father.
Ironically, while most incorrectly consider Valhalla to be the Viking equivalent of the Christian heaven, which as you pointed out is not the case, it seems Folkvang is a much closer comparison by my understanding. In her realm, it is said warriors help her tend to the fields and enjoy peace and tranquility.
There are some indications as to the criteria of acceptance into this realm ruled by the great goddess. For example, as patron of the shield maiden warriors, it is was said that Freya welcomed all of them who were slain in battle into Folkvang. Because of this, I have often thought that modern female soldiers who fall in battle are most likely to be escorted by the Valkyries to Folkvang. Additionally, based on reading the various poems, Eda’s and other ancient texts, and commentaries regarding them, it appears there Freya chooses the lesser warriors slain in the battlefield. In your discussion, you described the einherjar as “special-forces” with Lord Odin choosing the greatest of warriors to enter and train at Valhalla, for Ragnarok. Based on this, it seems Freya takes in the lowly soldiers. This being the common, ordinary foot soldiers as opposed to more skilled and dangerous warriors, who the All-Father is more likely to desire in his hall to prepare and train for the coming of Ragnarok. I have even heard by some that the families of fallen soldiers can sometimes be welcomed to live amongst them under Great Freya’s rule, adding further support to this being a true warrior’s “paradise.
Based on this I suppose Folkvang is reserved for soldiers who are not seeking glory and duty, as those who enter Valhalla do, as you mentioned earlier. For example, a common foot soldiers opposed who was conscripted into service, who had no training and no real desire for war, would be taken into Folkvang, while a Navy Seal for example who is skilled in numerous forms of combat and is a veteran special forces soldier, would more likely be accepted into Valhalla if slain in battle. Based on this, I have always viewed Folkvang as something of a warriors paradise as opposed to Valhalla, where the slain chosen by great Freya enjoy peace for deeds and heroic sacrifice, while those chosen by Great Odin wish to continue the warrior’s way even in death, fulfilling the desires of glory and duty in his service that you mentioned before.
Going back to the question of morality, I feel that soldiers who commit what we term as war crimes would not be welcomed by the goddess into Folkvang. As a patron goddess of women, I can hardly see Great Freya welcoming rapists and tortures into her domain. And since the realm seems somewhat reserved for more modest and lower-ranking warriors who fall in battle, it seems rather unlikely that she would permit fallen soldiers who craved bloodshed for the sake of it and committed acts of massive cruelty against noncombatants, including genocide, such as those of the Nazi and Khmer Rogue regimes for example, into her rather peaceful sounding realm.
Based on this, perhaps morality may indeed play into the selection of fallen warriors after-all, as Great Freya may not wish for destructive and vile individuals to pollute her realm.
If possible, I would like to know your thoughts on this assessment.
Ben, I very much appreciate your depiction here of your understanding of Folkvang, and it feels right to me, as well as to you. This is an area of our beliefs that I had not yet explored in any depth, and I’m glad to have this understanding that you provide.
As you imply, the majority of warriors throughout time have been ordinary people forced to defend their homes and families, their lands and tribes, or forced by dire circumstances to find other places to live so their people could survive. Most of these warriors were very young when they started on that path–young teenagers–and were given little choice, inculcated into the warrior mindset without being offered other ways to make a living and gain respect in the eyes of their communities. In large families, some children received land or wealth, while others were left to make their own way because there wasn’t enough to go around.
It does seem very right that there be an afterlife place for them, too: one which, as you say, respects their sacrifices and courage without asking them to perpetually follow the warrior path. And one which makes room for them to continue pursuing their true motivations for fighting, namely to treasure their families and communities who join them in the afterlife, and the peaceful way of life that was their reason and reward for their fighting and sacrifices during life.
The name of Freya’s afterlife domain, Folkvang, supports your view. The “folk” part can refer either to an army, or to a folk, an ordinary, peaceful group of people united by a common culture. And the “vang” part means a field, a meadow, an area of countryside, which implies agricultural land, grazing land, and land available for foraging. Land where people can live and prosper in peace.
I suppose that, on occasions when Freya needs this, she could call for volunteers from her ‘retired’ warriors and they would support her need, but as you say, one wouldn’t regard them as full-time professional warriors as the Einherjar are.
So, thank you very much for this picture of Folkvang; I will treasure it!
I’d like to add here another note about God-Homes and afterlife locations. In the old lore, as we all know, there was much emphasis on warrior culture and the afterlife of warriors in Valhalla. But in the prose Edda, several other abodes are mentioned in connection with Odin, including Gladsheim, Vingolf, and Valaskjalf, where his high seat Hlidskjalf was said to be located. It’s not very clear; in one reference Vingolf is the hall of the Goddesses together, in another it’s one of Odin’s halls. Gladsheim, too, is in one context said to be a central location for all the Gods, in another it’s one of Odin’s places.
Actually, it all makes sense to me: the Gods and Goddesses often gather together for feasts and meetings, so why shouldn’t some of their places be considered as much gathering-places as any individual Deity’s abodes? But where I’m going with this is that I believe Odin has one or more other Halls, other than Valhalla, where people who’ve worked closely with Odin in ways other than fighting may choose to gather in the afterlife.
I see Valaskjalf in particular as one of those, named for the powers of seership, and the location of his high seat where he sees, ponders, and learns much of his wisdom–and which, it is said, he shares with Frigg. I think that people who follow Odin’s path of wisdom rather than the path of the warrior may find a good afterlife home in Valaskjalf, or in Gladsheim, or Vingolf–the Hall of Friends (vin = friend).
I also want to wrap up this comment by noting that, following the ideas of soul lore that I’ve researched and developed, I think that the souls we’re talking about here are the Ghost-souls or spirits, who are naturally drawn to the God-Homes after death. I also think that we have other souls, the Saiwalos (this is the proto-Germanic word from which our word ‘soul’ descended’). The Saiwalos, as I understand it, have their natural home in Hel. After death, our Ghost goes to a God-Home, or spends time in several of them, while Saiwalo pursues its existence in Hel, the Womb of Souls.
Anyway, thank you, Ben, for all this good and interesting discussion!
Your discussions are always beautiful and fun to read. While I may be busy for some time tending to my education, I was hoping to ask one more thing. In most of our discussions we have been questioning the various afterlifes, but there are a few have not addressed. One of them, is the realm of punishment: Nastrond.
I do not generally think of Natsrond as an exact variant of the Christian Hell. From the texts and notes by other modern believers that I have read, there are far fewer acts that are considered what the Christians would term “sins” for one to enter this horrid realm. However, it has made me wonder on the question of evil. The three acts that have traditionally been associated with punishment in Natsrond are murder, oath breaking, and adultery. But as moral standards have greatly changed since ancient times, as we discussed before, could there be other offenses deemed so terrible by the gods that they could also be sent to this realm?
Also, what interests me about Natsrond is how many Heathens perceive it. In Christianity, Christians are taught to fear Hell and seem to do everything in their power to try and avoid being sent there. However, while many in Heathenry believe in Nastrond most modern practitioners whom I have read about do not seem to share the same level or worry that they may be sent to this realm as much as other faiths who believe in realms of torment and punishment. Therefore, I was hoping to receive your insight regarding this realm. Do you not fear of being sent there for some reason? Should we all not be afraid of it and dedicate our lives to perfecting the ways in which we can avoid being sent there like many other faiths seem to do?
Again, thank you for all your help and gracing me with your knowledge and wisdom. I am so happy you are safe and that the storm is over. Praise Thor!
I’ve included my response to this and related questions in the following article:
https://heathensoullore.net/thoughts-about-heathen-afterlife/
Winifred,
First of all I hope you and yours are okay after the storm hit! I was just reading the conversation between you and Ben and it drew me in. For Ragnarok, I agree that it is symbolic to the conversion period as well (I don’t believe the Deities can “die”). As for the Valholl subject this has also been something that I have pondered from time to time. If I may, would it be alright to make just a couple of brief comments to Ben on this page about the “acceptance into Valholl” subject based on some research and personal opinion? Of course it will be professional.
Also on a different note, as many Heathens today have loved ones whom are of a different faith (Christianity first comes to mind) how do you feel about Ghost interaction once Heathens enter the God Realms and Christians go to Heaven? As you and I have talked about before of Heathen Ghosts being able to travel to multiple different Heathen Deity Homes(as long as they’ll have you) I am curious on what your thoughts are about this. Thank you so much for your time once more!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
Jaques–I’m glad if you and Ben want to discuss subjects together on this site; please go ahead if you both want to! I know you’re both well aware of the requirements for civil discourse, as you’ve both already demonstrated in your posts here.
I’ve consolidated my response to your question about interacting with those of other faiths in the afterlife into this longer article on my website:
https://heathensoullore.net/thoughts-about-heathen-afterlife/
Hello Ben,
I’m Jacques, you’ve probably seen some of my questions here on Winifreds site. I was reading the conversation between you two the other night and I wanted to share a little bit of my personal perspective which has some scholarly input on the “acceptance into Valholl” subject ( I am not a scholar, I mean from readings as well as my personal opinion) because I too have pondered the same thing! Here it goes.
This first part at least I think some Heathens would agree with: I think a huge part of getting accepted to Valholl or any of Odin’s halls is going to based on building a relationship with him. There are bits and bobs in the old tales that mention people getting into Valholl without specifically being killed in combat as well-but they were devoted to Odin.
Another thing that I have wondered on the same subject is: What about the warriors who were dedicated to Odin and spent their lives fighting but never fell in combat? If they were close to him and of course as long as he is willing, maybe they would be granted entry even if they died of old age. I believe its a possibility and would love to read your thoughts about it (Winifred and Ben).
Again this is just my opinion/beliefs! I just wanted to contribute in some way as like I said before it crosses my mind from time to time too. Thank you to you both Winifred and Ben!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
Hello Jacques, it is so nice to become acquainted with you. I enjoyed reading your earlier comments and I learned a good bit from them. I’m sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I just completed my recent semester for graduate school and it ate up so much of my focus. Your theory regarding great Odin’s hall does have merit. Perhaps it is possible that soldiers that die of old age are welcomed into the All-father’s hall. This topic has made me realize something, when soldiers fall in battle and enter the afterlife, we generally idealize them as remaining in their youthful forms, basking and drinking in the Valhalla until Ragnarök comes. However, does age truly matter when one is dead? If someone dies an old, depending on where they go after death, could perhaps they hold a youthful form again.
Keeping this in mind, if the All-father permits soldiers into his hall for their skills, as the old tales indicate, then maybe he would accept veteran soldiers who proved their worth in their youth, and reward them with youthful forms again in his hall to prepare for the coming battle. Again, this is where clashes of values and culture come into play between the ancient Heathens and our modern society. Back then, surviving a war and dying of old age at home was generally considered a disgrace and they believed great Odin would never accept them. I don’t remember where I read it from, but I believe I read once that sometimes, Viking veterans would challenge younger warriors to duels of the death in the hopes of dying honorably and being welcomed into Vahalla, before they could die of old age. On the other hand, today, it is generally considered to be a blessing to not die in war and come back to live a full, happy life. This is a deep contrast between eras, and one for which we may find little answer to.
Also, as Winifred positioned earlier, perhaps being a warrior and dying in battle isn’t the only way for great Odin to accept us mortals. While he is a god of war, which the ancients focused on in regard to the afterlife, he is also a god of wisdom making him a patron among scholars. Perhaps scholars and philosophers who are devotees can be welcomed into his hall after dying of old age.
I hope this explanation makes sense and I would love to receive your input.
Winifred,
Also I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more on what you mean by ” the afterlife being a state of mind” and also experiencing being in multiple God homes at once? Thank you!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
I’ve consolidated my response to this and several related questions in the following article:
https://heathensoullore.net/thoughts-about-heathen-afterlife/
Hello Winifred, please forgive me that it has been such a long time since we last spoke. These past weeks I was focused on completing the semester at grad school, but now that I am finished I was hoping to receive your wisdom on something I have been placing much pondering on as of late. When we first spoke, our first discussion regarded the extent of the influence the Norns place upon our lives. While our fates our set, I have always believed that it is the gods that guide us to our destiny, in various ways.
However, I have long considered to what extent the gods influence our lives and was hoping to receive your opinion on this subject. As you know, I have studied Ancient Greek philosophy, and there was one philosopher whose beliefs on the divine have been quite intriguing to me. I am sure you have heard of the philosopher Epicurus, the founder of the philosophy modern individuals have named after him as Epicureanism. While I understand this philosophy is of a different era and culture of Heathenism, he did bring up an interesting concept that I would like to know your perspective on. During his time, Epicurus was considered an epiphany among the Greeks because of his unique perspective of the gods. Contrary to what some believe, Epicurus was not an atheist. He believed in the existence of the Greek gods but did not believe in the myths surrounding them. Instead, he reasoned that the gods, as immortal beings, live in a constant state of pleasure in the heavens and thus have no need to interfere with the affairs of man. If they are supremely powerful, immortal, and live in constant comfort, why would they be interested in being involved in human affairs?
If Epicurus lived during the Middle Ages in Scandinavia, he would argue that, yes Thor is god of the sky and holds total power over the atmosphere, but that doesn’t mean that it storms because he is angry or when it rains it doesn’t mean he is providing mercy to struggling farmers. He would argue that great Thor and the other gods and goddesses, have no reason to interfere with man’s affairs as they have done in several myths and legends, thus the average natural event, such as a storm or fire, is most likely simply a naturally occurring event without any divine influence. You may have heard of the philosophy of deism from the Age of Enlightenment, this was the monotheistic version of Epicurus’ philosophy.
Keeping this in mind, it has made me wonder on the role of the gods in the natural world. Not long ago, my home experienced a powerful rainfall that nearly caused flash flooding, but was this great Thor’s will or a natural event? When it thundered, the Norse believed that it was because great Thor was striking a jotnar with his mighty hammer. Additionally, they also tended to blame natural disasters on the jotnar: if a blizzard occurred it was often because of a frost giant, or a tornado was likely the doing of a storm giant. Keeping this in mind, if a devastating hurricane were to ravage part of Florida or Louisiana this year, would it be the doing a jotnar? How can we distinguish whether a natural disaster or event is the willing of divine beings and not simply a random occurrence? To what level do the gods interact with mortals? And given the power they possess over the universe, why would the gods consider interacting with humanity and its affairs?
As I may have mentioned before, as a student and lover of philosophy, I hold deep reverence for the All-father, the lord of sages, and almighty Frigg, the wisest goddess of guidance. Every time I take a quiz, test, or some other form of assignment, I pray to them to show my devotion and trust, and whenever I make a successful grade I know they are the ones who provide me victory. So many times they have given me victory, and the only recent failed grade I made was because of a poor decision I made prior to taking my quiz, which cost me their favor, and for which I have come to recognize and atone for. Since then they continue to hear my prayers and answer me.
While I know that they have heard and aided me in my struggles, it has made me wonder regarding events that have more to do with the natural world and how the gods may contribute to events in which they are not called upon or their help sought. If possible, I would love to know your perspective? Is a thunderstorm a sign of victory from great Thor? Is a destructive hurricane the workings of a malevolent jotnar? Or are they most likely random events?
As usual, Ben, you offer very thought-provoking discussion and questions! Let me mention first a peculiarity about my own thought-processes because it is relevant to my response here. I’ve always seemed to have multiple layers of understanding about pretty much any complex question, always seeing both or multiple sides about anything, which very often frustrates people who ask my opinions! I’m a retired scientist and find scientific understanding of the world to be fascinating and compelling. I’m a mystic or spiritual person too, and spiritual realities have great, profound meaning for me. So any questions involving the actions of Deities versus Nature, I’m a “both / and” sort of person!
For example, on the question of “did the Gods create humans, or did we evolve?” I’d say it’s some of both: we did evolve through natural, physical means, but the Holy Ones nudged the process here and there, gave gifts to us, gave us some of our souls, challenged us to rise to greater heights, guided our paths, etc. (And so did the Great Spirits of animals, trees, other beings, guiding them each in their own ways.)
One example in our mythology is given in Rigsthula, about Rig / Heimdall engendering Thrall, Karl, and Jarl. This is often interpreted as a somewhat distasteful establishment of social hierarchy, but I and other Heathens see it quite differently–as a tale of how the Gods intervened in humans’ natural and cultural evolution. A clue to this is that the parents of Thrall, overshadowed during their engendering by Heimdall’s power, were called by name ‘great-grandparents.’ The parents of Karl, the yeoman farmer, were named as ‘grandparents.’ The parents of Jarl, the aristocrat, were ‘parents.’ There’s clearly a time-sequence here, implying an evolutionary process, though it is unfortunate that the process was designated by social classes in this tale. Different times, different cultural values. But I’ll point this out, too: by these actions of Heimdall’s, *all* of us can thus be called Heimdall’s Kin: he played an equal role in spiritually fathering Thrall, Karl, and Jarl over a period of evolutionary time. I see this as one example of the Gods’ intervention in human evolution.
Okay, on to your specific questions: first, about the nature of the Gods’ interactions with humans. And to tie this to what I wrote about human evolution, I want to add that both the Greek and the Germanic Deities (as well as those of many other pantheons) fathered, and in some cases mothered, human beings. In Greek mythology that was the definition of a ‘hero’–the offspring of a Deity and a human. They weren’t ‘heroes’ because of heroic deeds; they pursued heroic (sometimes anti-heroic but mighty) deeds because being of divine descent gave them the ability to be heroic. Like Achilles, or Sigurd / Siegfried.
But here’s a difference that speaks to what you’re asking: I think there is much more of a sense of kinship between Gods and humans in the Germanic view than in the Greek view. Specific Greek Gods did patronize specific groups of Greeks, like Athena with Athenians, and they patronized specific humans at times like Athena / Mentor with Odysseus, or took violently against them, like Poseidon and Hermes against Odysseus and his crew. But in general there was the concept of ‘hubris,’ and dire punishment for it, that created a large gap between the Gods and any human attempt to perceive closeness, kinship, or any measure of equality with them. There was a definite line that was not to be crossed in the Greek view.
I imagine this line-not-to-be-crossed is part of why Epicurus held the views he did: it emphasized the differences and the distance between Deities and humans, such that Deities could relax and enjoy their privileged lives while humans toiled and suffered without their help. (Though this viewpoint does ignore the many gifts of Greek Gods to humans, like Athena’s gifts of weaving, crafts, the olive tree, and the arts of civic life including architecture; horses from Poseidon; the midwife’s and the hunter’s crafts and help from Artemis; gifts of agriculture from Demeter; arts of healing and music from Apollo; the gifts of the Muses, and many others….I suppose those are all part of the myths he rejects–all the stories of their gifts. But this idea of gifts from the Gods pervades the tales and mythologies of a great many religions around the world.)
In Germanic belief and experience, there is much more contact between humans and Deities, both during and after life. The Greek Elysian Fields, afterlife home of the heroes and the virtuous, offers a life of divine luxury and pleasure, but not the companionship of the Gods, as far as I know. Whereas for us, there’s Valhalla–Odin’s Hall, with the presence of himself, his Valkyries, and probably others as well–and where the Einherjar have to work hard before enjoying their feast! Folkvang: Freya’s presence there, Thor’s gigantic Hall Bilskirnir, largest of all to accommodate all his folk, Frau Holle’s green, underworld domain of homely comforts. Our Gods and Goddesses are present with us in the afterlife; we’re not shunted off, not even into luxury hotels, to places that are separated from them.
And during life: they wander around Midgard and get involved with human life and activity. Look at all the folklore in Grimm of Goddesses and Gods encountered in everyday life; all the tales of Odin showing up here & there at unexpected times and places, Frau Holle, Walburga, Freya, Kvasir, Baldr, others. (I’ve written about exactly this in “The Kindly Gods Go Wandering” on this website.) Our whole religion is about interacting with the Gods. We’re physically and spiritually related with them; they are our Elder Kin, not our lords and masters. Kinship, frith, community, are of utmost importance in Germanic culture, and that includes our relationships with the Deities.
For me, that answers the question of ‘why should they care?’ They care for the same reasons that we care. They’re invested in Midgard; they’re always involved in our affairs–even interfering with them, often in quite inexplicable ways. They’ve ‘tended’ humans and Midgard like a garden over evolutionary time. We are related to them, and relationship matters profoundly in Germanic culture. And here’s another thing: they are not perfect, we are not perfect, Midgard isn’t perfect. It’s not always clear that their involvement is helpful to any given individual; they may have broader, more far-reaching concerns than only one person’s temporary wishes. I like this verse from Tolkien’s epic poem, “The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun,” that addresses the frequent complaint that ‘all Odin’s chosen ones come to bad ends!’
“Whom Odin chooseth endeth not untimely,
Though ways of men he walk briefly.
In wide Valholl he may wait feasting:
It is to ages after that Odin looks.”
It’s not all about each one of us, at each moment in our lives. It’s not all about specific groups of us all the time. It’s also about Midgard itself, both Nature and human history, the playing out of orlog and wyrd over longer spans of time. The Gods don’t coddle us, they’re not just fairy godmothers granting all our wishes. We are each smaller patterns within larger ones in webs of complexity. That’s part of what frith is all about: understanding that our individual wyrds are part of a larger pattern.
In Germanic thought and experience, the image of Deities lounging in the lap of luxury while humans suffer, totally cut off from them, is just not there! We’re all striving together, there are often conflicts between what one wants and another needs, between individual humans, groups of humans, humans and nature….our Gods don’t wander off detached and uncaring about these things; that’s not their nature. It *is* their nature to look at and work with longer and larger patterns that may conflict with shorter-term individual desires.
Challenges, ordeals, sacrifice for the greater good, developing courage, farsightedness, endurance, determination: these are important aspects of what they offer us….not bags of lollipops, or the fairy-tale granting of all our desires! Life is tough, and they don’t pretend otherwise, but nor do they distance themselves from our troubles in a paradise of pleasure. If they think it’s better for us, or for the larger scheme of things, to let us fail and learn from that, or to encourage us to struggle our own way to reach our own solutions, then that’s what they’ll do, and they can deal with us being mad at or disappointed with them!
All the ways they deal with us, including letting us deal with things ourselves, are for reasons very, very different than simply “they don’t care, they can’t be bothered”! In my view, all the challenges they place before us, or stand back from when we create them ourselves, are ways that they ‘tend the garden’ of letting us learn, grow, evolve to our own full potential. We don’t grow and learn when things are easy; we do it in response to challenges.
Epicurus may have drawn the conclusions he did–I don’t know this, of course–because of thinking that being free of care and responsibility, having comfort and luxury, enjoyment of life, are the ‘highest goods.’ If someone–the Gods–have achieved that state, there is no reason to leave it because it is the highest good, in their view. In Germanic thought, these–while of course they’re appreciated and desired–are not the ‘highest good.’ The highest good lies in frith, relationship, the wellbeing of the clan, the community, along with one’s reputation and honor in the eyes of that community. Those things in turn require effort, sometimes even self-sacrifice. They require mutual obligations and mutual benefits, the sharing of efforts and the sharing of rewards. Heathens also highly regarded things like honor, achievement, winning over adversity, and these things necessarily assume the existence of challenges that can, in fact, call forth honor, victory, achievement, etc. It’s a very active and challenging, rather than leisurely and luxurious, view of the world and of life, and both Gods and people play quite different roles in this more active world!
Now to the question about: to what extent are the Gods, Jotnar, etc, responsible for natural phenomena and their effects on us? I think that everything is involved: natural processes, Deities, Jotnar, landwights, and certainly we humans as well. This gets back again to larger patterns: if the Deities interfered, say, in weather patterns to spare one area from severe effects, this would have enormous repercussions around the world. Is it ‘right’ to move one storm or drought away from one area, one group of people or ecosystem, just to give it to another? Domino effects would spread outwards like rings from a stone tossed in the water, and would result in even more havoc over larger areas, longer spans of time. It’s the same thing with patterns of wyrd or orlog, complex layers laid over great spans of space and time. Interfering to prevent or cause one thing to happen will leave many effects multiplying over time and space. Humans must–and the Deities, I believe, generally choose to–work within existing patterns rather than bringing in outside forces to disrupt them, with unpredictable results.
The Jotnar have their own patterns, motives, reactions, and I think some of them are in reaction to the disruptions humans are causing in Nature–the Jotnar’s efforts, as children of the Earth, to rebalance Earth-systems, however violently they do it. Both humans and Jotnar can be very destructive, in the short term and the long term, yet can also serve constructive ends. (I offer a ‘new view’ of this in my article “Renewable Energy Installations as Jotun-Shrines” that I think you might find of interest relating to this discussion.) The interactions among us all–humans, Jotnar, landwights, Deities, Nature itself–are massively complex, and all of us have responsibilities toward the Whole that is Midgard.
I would definitely not call the manifestations of Nature ‘random events,’ however. Nature follows its own very complex laws and patterns, and we humans are a part of that pattern–generally a very disruptive part of it these days, but we are beings of Nature, dependent upon Nature and part of it. Partly through natural processes and partly through human-caused ones, global climate is shifting away from patterns that humans and ecosystems have evolved to cope with and benefit from, into patterns that are less supportive of our wellbeing because we did not evolve to fit those patterns. For example, humans and Midgard life have evolved to thrive under certain limited temperature conditions. Climate change is causing larger areas of the world to exceed those temperatures more often, making people unable to work or thrive because of the heat, causing illness and death, crop failures, ecosystem declines, and more. Is this an act of the Gods? Of the Jotnar? Or is it due to human and Nature interactions: human exploitation of Nature and Nature’s responses to the changes that humans have made?
So, I’d say this: Nature and the Jotnar and landwights do their stuff. Humans do our stuff. The Deities may at times intervene, give things a nudge here or there, try to keep the Jotnar under some kind of control, try to spark some wisdom in humans by challenging us to be fully aware of the complexity around us. The Gods may more often intervene in small ways rather than large ones: not stop the storm, but help to lessen the harm in individual cases–keep the car from stalling in the flooded underpass, cause the falling tree to avoid the house, arrange that we are visiting friends or kin who have a basement during a tornado, or being out of town when a wildfire or hurricane hits. Little things, things that don’t throw off the greater patterns in any significant way. And I have to say: I think Thor just enjoys thunder…he can enjoy the opportunity to let loose and thunder during a storm, no matter what causes the storm! (There was a great roll of thunder just now as I was typing these words!)
In a much larger way, here is how I see the Gods intervening: by helping–or forcing–us to understand our human roles in these larger patterns of Nature and of Wyrd, and helping us develop human powers to respond to problems that arise. Powers like courage, wisdom, generosity; like intelligence, strategic thinking, cooperation; like useful science and technology, responsibility, willingness to accept limitations for the sake of a greater good.
This ties together everything we’re talking about here. We, Nature, the Deities and other beings are part of an interactive whole…I’m wearing my ecologist hat here! We all affect and are affected by the physical, metaphysical and spiritual systems within which we are embedded. We all spend a lot of time working at cross-purposes. The Gods are the ones with the best view of the whole, and the motivation to have it work holistically for mutual benefit, to stave off Ragnarok as far as possible. They do care: they care about us, about Nature and Midgard. They have their own ways of acting on that caring, and often as not it comes across as ‘tough love.’ A lot of that is because they have to consider the big picture, the long view, the full consequences of all actions and choices, and all the contradictions that arise because of them. It’s not easy being Gods…at least, not Gods who care! 😀
Best wishes,
Winifred
Dear Winifred, once again, I absolutely loved your in-depth response and it has has once again given me such a brand new perspective on the relationship between nature, the gods, and living creatures. I recently visited the Natural History Museum in DC and much of the lessons it taught me about the evolution of life and the different phases that Earth went through resonated with much the lessons you have taught me through this post. I especially appreciate your insight into domino effects and how the mercies of certain deities towards one community could bring disaster or some manner of harm to another. I did not think of it like that.
I too share your views on the evolution of humanity. I find it impossible to dispute that we evolved through natural process like all other animals, that life has evolved since before time of the dinosaurs, but I do believe that the gods have guided us in our development. Many cultures and mythologies tell such tales of the gods guiding us in the development of civilization and teaches us the practices we know today. For the Greeks, a classic tale would be the god of fire Prometheus teaching humanity how to use fire for warmth and cooking. For the faith of Asatru, it is said that great Skadi, goddess of the hunt and winter, taught humans how to ski.
From these examples, I feel that as we evolved and matured as a species it was the gods who guided and aided us in our development and capacity to create civilization and society.
However, sometimes I question why they have guided us along this path. While it was undoubtedly to aid us, a question is to what end. By this, I mean what should be our role in the universal hierarchy. As I have mentioned before, I love studying history of various cultures and civilizations. Sadly, however, mankind’s history is extremely violent and plagued by constant warfare. In many of these conflicts, many conquerors and tyrants claimed to have received signs from their deities commanding them to do as they did. Some even claimed to have received visions or were visited by the gods themselves to do as they did. For Norse Vikings, however, claimed that they received visions from mighty Thor himself through thundering storms that urged them to sail to England and raid the country.
This has led me to often question the role of human servitude to the gods. Are we here on Earth to simply obey divine will? Is a human’s purpose simply to obey the will of whatever god or goddess he reveres and never question their commands if given a sign? In the past, I have debated with others on the nature of the gods. In the modern day, where monotheistic religions are most common within religious communities, especially in the Western world, a recurring belief is that divinity has to be perfect and flawless. However, in Asatru, we are aware of and acknowledge that the gods are flawed. We do not pretend they are perfect, and instead acknowledge that they make mistakes just as humans do, as evidence in the various tales told of them. I have even engaged in debates with others on such complexities and how the gods have a differing degree of morality than humans due to their higher universal status of divinity.
Such a different perspective, however, fuels my curiosity with the question I am hoping to ask. As I have mentioned before, I revere almighty Frigg and the great All-Father, and have called out to them and sought their aid in studies and works for school. I am eternally grateful to them for they have given me everything and allowed me to come this far in life. But what if I receive a sign from them, telling me to do something that may go against my personal moral values? I consider myself a servant of the gods, thus should I not obey whatever command I am given? Are humans on Earth simply to obey the gods and whatever their wills may be? Is it ever right for someone to go against the wishes of their deity? If so, can you still prove yourself grateful for their mercies and gifts? I know this question is personal, but it is something I have considered for a longtime, and hope to receive some clarity towards it, as I never wish to offend the gods. I owe everything to them and always wish to show my appreciation.
Winifred, as a lover of philosophy, I myself have attempted to find my own answers to the questions that have been asked since the dawn of our evolution. I particularly love questions of ethics, but what if I find answers that are contrary to those held by the gods themselves? I ask this of you because you are a truly enlightened philosopher who holds such understanding of the great ones and their nature. Your insight has guided me and provided me so much I didn’t even consider before. Thus, I feel that as someone who is both a philosopher and devotee of the holy ones, you are the perfect person to help me with this. I eagerly await your answer and wisdom as always. Thank you.
It’s always lovely to read and ponder on your questions, Ben! I’ll start with this one: What do we do if we believe that the Gods are telling us to go against our own ethical principles? I want to start by placing it into the context of a larger question: what role do Heathen Gods play in human ethics and laws? In the monotheistic religions and some polytheistic religions, their Gods themselves made laws for humans and set humans to follow them. Following ‘God’s law’ and being an ethical person is considered one and the same thing. You’re not supposed to hold any ethical beliefs that contradict your God’s laws, or at least what you are taught about them by your religious establishment. The Old Testament story about Yahweh telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac is a heart-wrenching example of this principle. Failing to follow ‘God’s law,’ in this belief, might or might not result in the immediate infliction of ‘God’s wrath’, but it certainly results in inescapable punishment during the afterlife.
This point of view is deeply imbedded in many cultures–including ours–for historical reasons, even when individuals might not be seriously committed to any of the religions that teach this. So in this world-view, while there may be controversy, confusion, and heart-searching about how to interpret ‘God’s law,’ the possibility of someone being *ethically obliged* to reject a direct command or request from their God simply doesn’t come up. Not to mention that these religious establishments would not agree that an individual person could receive a valid command from God outside of established religious authority. Hence the travails of people like Joan of Arc and her messages from her God that the Church did not agree with and burned her for it.
Our religion is very different, and it’s one of the main reasons I like it! As a disclaimer: what I’m about to write here can be both supported and contradicted by historical and literary evidence. This is my interpretation of complex evidence, based on my understanding and practice of troth with our Holy Ones. So: our Gods do not give us specific “laws” in the same sense as some other religions have them, particularly the monotheistic ones. (In fact, this is one of the reasons that cultures permeated by monotheistic religions, such as ours, don’t want to accept that the Heathen and similar religions are ‘real’ religions: because we don’t have ‘divine laws’ we must follow, nor do we have creeds or doctrines. Supposedly, this makes our religion not a ‘real’ one!)
Our Deities have, especially in the past, indicated how they want to be worshipped—the customs and rituals to practice for this purpose—but these are not laws that govern the full conduct of human affairs. And yet, ‘law’ was an extremely important concept in all the old Heathen cultures. Among other things it was used to define the identity of a community or a tribe: being within the law meant being a member of the community governed by those laws; when one transgressed them one was out-lawed, cast out of the community. When the Ostrogoths conquered Rome after the empire fragmented, Gothic rulers recognized two sets of laws: one for Goths, one for Romans; each person was supposed to follow the law of their own tribe. (This approach was considered fair to all, but was so complex and unwieldy that it was abandoned after a couple of generations.)
To emphasize the importance of law, among the Continental Germanic and Anglo-Saxon peoples, the term for a priest was Æweweard (A-S) / Ewart (OHG) and their cognates. There were other terms for priestly roles such as ‘bloteres’ or sacrificers, and ‘heargweards’ or temple-wardens, but what one might call ‘high priest’ was termed Æweweard, and this can be loosely translated as ‘warder of the law,’ the Æ / Æwe / E- / Eu / Ehe (pronounced like ‘aye, a-weh, ey’). So if their high priests were ‘warders of the law,’ doesn’t that mean that there was a set of divine laws that they were given and were expected to follow?
My answer is ‘yes’ and ‘no’, and it’s based on the more precise meaning of ‘Æw’. This word can be translated as ‘law,’ but more precisely it means something like ‘troth, covenant.’ It was also the word for a legal marriage, a form of troth, and survives today in the modern German word for marriage: Ehe. What the Æwe-weard warded was not specific cast-in-stone ‘laws’ given by the Gods, but the *troth* between Deities and humans. In order to maintain this troth, customs, rituals, practices, traditions, rules, expectations of behavior developed over time and became established. The Æweweard warded them through his / her religious functions, and the E-saga or Eh-saga (ey-saga), the law-speaker, remembered, recited and applied them for judicial purposes.
There’s a big difference here between the Æwe versus specific divine laws handed down from on high. The purpose of the Æwe-law was to maintain troth and frith between humans and their Gods, and just as importantly, maintain troth and frith within the human community. Gods, folk, law, frith, community: all are knitted together through their own Æwe, their troth with one another. In different places and times, different communities, different historical and cultural circumstances, different laws and customs may be needed to support a given community’s well-being under its own specific circumstances.
Just as with a marriage or a partnership, the customs and rules of behavior may need to change from time to time to support a healthy relationship as circumstances change. The people and other beings involved in a relationship of troth *do not exist to serve the law;* the law is not an end in itself. The laws exist solely to support troth and frith, and if they are failing to do so, then they need to be changed.
In other words, as I see it the only real ‘law’ given to us by our Gods is the establishment of troth with them, and the frith that supports it. ‘How to make frith work’ is a human responsibility, and in my view it lies at the heart of any question regarding Heathen ethics and our Deities. The Gods expect us to value troth and frith, with them and among ourselves. They expect us to figure out how to maintain troth and frith, and they respect us for our achievements in that regard. And that is what any system of ethics, anywhere, does: it provides customs, practices, rules, traditions, philosophical understanding, that help maintain frith within the community.
The fact that frith between people and Deities was highly valued is shown by the existence of old Heathen ‘frithsteads’—places of worship that could be small and personal or large and communal—where frith was required toward the Gods *and* among those who attended there. Heathen frithsteads persisted through centuries of Christian pressure against them, and when public practice of Heathenism was outlawed, they were hidden carefully but still tended. These holy places, whatever their size or nature, were always considered ‘frithsteads.’
One reason why it’s hard for us today to realize that the Heathen Gods respect frith is because in elder times Heathens often did not behave frithfully toward outsiders, exemplified by the Viking raiders and many other conflicts over land, wealth and resources. And, like people in other religions, they sometimes ‘used’ their Gods to support this. Back then, frith was what one ethically maintained within one’s own community and kindred, and even there it often broke down, then as now. Frith with outsiders wasn’t ‘required’ unless—as often was the case—it benefitted you and your community, and then it was more of a transactional process than any kind of deep troth or shared Æwe.
Today there are many more people in the world, social units, communities, and communication networks are much broader and larger than they used to be, and many of us have learned to value the extension of frith into ever-larger concentric circles, as I discuss in my articles “Frith, Friendship, and Freedom,” and “Heathen Frith and Modern Ideals.” We don’t have to be bound by unfrithful ‘raider’ attitudes toward others, whatever Heathens in the past might have thought, though self-defense and defense of others against real (not ‘perceived,’ invented, or self-inflicted) threats is certainly appropriate.
It’s interesting to note that our Heathen Deities model frith *among themselves* far better than many Deities in other polytheistic and monotheistic pantheons. In between the end of the Æsir-Vanir war, at the beginning, and the breakdown of frith that leads to Ragnarok at the end, we might see occasional insults or disagreements between our Deities in the lore, but nothing like the envious rivalries and warring demands that could appear among and between Deities of other pantheons.
Look at the Lokasenna in the Poetic Edda: Loki flings insults and accusations at one Deity after another, and in each case, some other Goddess or God steps forth to defend the accused. Instead of it turning into a free-for-all brawl with old grievances bursting out in all directions, as could easily have happened, it was an occasion where they all stood together in solidarity against their accuser. There are so many instances where the Heathen Deities work together, help each other out, stand together against adversity. I write about the establishment of frith among them after the Æsir-Vanir war, in my article “Kvasir and the Fermentation of Wisdom.”
So what I’m saying here is that our Deities value frith (admittedly, some do so more than others), and I believe that they expect it of us—expect us to establish and maintain it. In order to do so, we must develop ethical beliefs and practices, which may vary somewhat across time, place, and culture, but which are intended to maintain frith.
Now we can return to your original question, Ben, about what to do if we perceive that a Deity is asking us to go against our ethical principles. First of all, I have my doubts that a Deity would be genuinely asking us today to transgress our ethical principles. As I just finished discussing at length, I think that holding ethical principles is something that our Deities encourage, for the purpose of supporting frith. I think that far more often, when people think a Deity wants something unethical, it’s really coming from the person or the person’s society and culture, not from the Deity, and is intended as an excuse to sideline any ethical constraints on one’s behavior. However, this is not to downplay the wrenching ethical difficulties that can arise in complex situations where there are sometimes no good choices available and one must figure out the ‘least-bad.’ In the latter situations we must consult with our Deities and consider our own ethics, and chart the best path forward that we can.
But here’s the bottom line: all along, for humans as a whole and for us as individuals, the Holy Ones guide us toward developing our own wisdom, our own strength, our ethics, our sense of responsibility, our own honor and courage. They expect this of us, and they push us into situations where we’re challenged to grow in this regard. And when we do develop these qualities they respect and honor us for this achievement. So when there is an apparent conflict between what we think they’re asking of us, and our own ethics, honor, responsibility (including responsibility for our own well-being)—all the very best of our own humanity–they would fully expect us to stand our own ground, and in fact will respect us for doing so. They actually want us to grow up! Generally, some time spent in clarifying the words of the Gods and our own underlying motivations will resolve any apparent conflicts.
However, they will also expect us to endure any negative consequences of our choices; we’re not always rewarded in any obvious ways when we make the tough choices. There are times when making the right choices seems only to cause us pain and difficulties, no rewards. That can happen even for the Gods…and the Einherjar. Instead of regarding such results as ‘punishment’ from the Gods or Wyrd, we can view it as part of our troth, our Æwe, the commitments of faith, trust, and solidarity that we weave as we walk with the Gods and our fellow humans, with Nature and other beings, along the demanding and difficult paths of life in Midgard.
I haven’t yet responded to all your questions, Ben, though I think what I’ve written here offers some relevant points relating to your other questions. But this is enough for today; I’ll be back later with more!
Winifred
Back again to respond to your other questions, Ben! I think I addressed one of them to an extent in my previous response about ethics: you ask, in effect, whether going against the wishes of our Deities would damage our relationship with them. In my experience and observation of other modern Heathens, my response is that generally: no, it does not do harm to our relationships if pursued in the right way, for the right reasons.
It depends, of course, on the reason why we go against their wishes. If it is because we take them lightly, scoff at their wishes, act like our relationship with them is a game or something to joke with our friends about, then that’s a different matter, of course. Our Deities can definitely take a joke—look at tales of Thor in the old poetry, for example. It’s fine to express a sense of camaraderie with them and be informal, casual, humorous. But there needs to be an underlying sense of respect, trust, faith in them…it’s like being with friends: people can horse around up to a point, but there’s always a line that shouldn’t be crossed.
Where that line lies is something we work out individually with each Deity. Frigg prefers more courtesy but can also deal with what lies deep in our hearts, Thor is fine with horsing around but I would not try it with Tyr or Mimir, Heimdall tends to be caring but rather distant, Freya and Odin can deal with a lot of ambiguity of feelings and thoughts, but Odin may give you the same in return, etc.
These are relationships that we grow and nurture over time, and each one is unique. When we disagree with a Deity about an ethical matter or a matter that is personally important to us, we can do what we would do in a human relationship: work it out. Understand where the other one is coming from, make sure your position is understood, evaluate these positions based on this better understanding, and take it from there. Take into account that the Deity is wiser than you are and has a broader, longer point of view, but also that you are in charge of yourself, responsible for your choices and actions, and have a right to govern your own life based on your values and goals (as long as that does not interfere with others doing the same). Including making your own mistakes and learning from them. Be aware of how easily misunderstandings arise—even among humans, more so between humans and Deities—and look carefully for such misunderstandings as you work things through.
The Deity’s wishes may not always be aligned with your own personal desires, outlooks, or intentions, and vice versa. Their wishes may at times be focused more on some other good than on your own personal good—that’s often what Deities do, and it’s a good thing in general! But complying with that wish may come at a cost to you, and you are ‘allowed’ to take that cost into consideration.
I went through a situation like that: urged by Frigg to found and lead a Heathen organization and to learn and teach about Heathen frith. I followed those urgings and I believe this brought about very good results over several years, but the pressure and workload added to my other life-responsibilities resulted in permanent bad effects on my health and the need for me to eventually let it go and focus inwards rather than outwards for a number of years. (Frigg was, in fact, quite heavy-handed with me, and rather amusingly it was Odin who suggested she back off a bit and give me some space—a reversal of their usual roles! But he had his own agenda too and became one of my guides during that inner process that he urged me to follow. Nor was he gentle with his own urgings, and I had to stand up to him on occasion, as well.) The effort for Frigg was worth it, and I don’t regret my choices, but I also think that if I’d said “I’m sorry, this is too much to ask of me,” I would have been justified as well, and I doubt I would have been ‘punished’ or rejected for that choice.
(For general readership: what I’ve written here implies close, active, and aware relationships with the Deities, and I know it can be challenging to pursue those with confidence. The articles I list under the menu headers “Heathen Spiritual Practices,” and “Deities” might offer some helpful approaches and background for developing those relationships in more depth.)
This discussion leads to your other profound questions, Ben, about what are we here for, why do the Gods guide us—are we simply their servants, where is this all leading, how do we ‘fit into the Worlds’? These are questions we must each answer for ourselves, and we may each find different answers. But I’ll offer mine, since you ask!
The best phrase I can find to answer this question of ‘why are we here?’ is “Expansion of Being.” I think this applies to everything that exists in any sense of ‘Being,’ including the Deities and spiritual as well as physical beings. This expansion of being includes growth in all directions, richness of experience and learning, interrelationships of all kinds with other beings of all kinds, enhancement of all our abilities and qualities and finding the best ways to express them, refinement and strengthening of our moral character through the challenges of life experience, the growth of wisdom and healthy compassion, the development of new abilities such as those we now call ‘paranormal’ or esoteric, pursuing new discoveries and creativity on the individual and societal levels at inner and outer levels of Being, contributing to the wellbeing of others and the Worlds around us, building healthy and thriving societies here in Midgard, honoring this beautiful Earth and all her children…well, this list could expand indefinitely!
I don’t see us so much as ‘servants of the Gods’ in these endeavors; rather I see us as their partners—junior partners, to be sure, but still partners. Partnership implies freedom of choice, willingness, joint responsibility, flexibility, autonomy. The tweaking and tending of human evolution by the Deities, as we discussed earlier, I think serves Expansion of Being rather than serving the Deities personally, though they and all of us gain personal benefits and satisfaction from it as well.
As I write on the home page of this website, I see all the Worlds and Beings as part of a great spiritual-physical ecosystem within which we each—Deities, humans, all Beings—have roles that we can play to support that system in its health and growth, its beauty and its mystery. Everything I write about, and everything that underlies what I write about, is intended as my offering of service to support this great ecosystem that encompasses us all and forms the substrate for our mutual expansion of being. This service is offered not because anyone says I have to, nor because I am ‘programmed’ to do so—this is not the kind of work that *can* be programmed or forced. I offer it because it is my Will, supported by all my souls. This work serves my own Expansion of Being for sure, and I hope contributes to that of others, as well.
Winifred
Winifred, once again you have produced an outstanding work! I deeply enjoyed your responses to my questions and so deeply appreciate all the effort you placed into them. Yours answers are deeply relatable and have given me new perspective once again. I find it incredible how much the gods and goddesses have guided you in your life and I admire your courage in standing up to goddesss Frigg while remaining respectful. Growing up in a society where a monotheistic faith has such influence, I think it has made me feel that while divinity is supposed to be revered, it is also often taught to be feared. In the Christian tradition, it is taught that their deity is flawless and that disobeying his will often leads to reputations: we are supposed to be the deity’s servants and not question his rulings. Looking back, when I first converted to the way of the gods I suppose I initially held this point of view about the them as well. I never believed I would be condemned in the afterlife for it, but I suppose I was fearful if they showed me a sign and I disobeyed in anyway I would face deep repercussions and horrible fortune in my life.
Over the years, however, while I remain devoted to the great ones and do my best to serve and please them, I do so out of gratitude rather than blind devotion. I consider myself their servant and devotee, but I recognize that they are flawed just as our ancestors did, and acknowledging these flaws doesn’t truly offend them. Instead, they still repay me for my prayers and loyalty, especially the gods of wisdom who have brought me so far in life. This devotion of mine to them is based on personal choice rather than the belief that we are only meant to be their servants.
Many from multiple polytheistic faiths have even expressed the belief that the gods don’t really care if most mortals either believe in them or dislike them, so I hardly believe they expect absolute obedience from us. Furthering my belief in this is your earlier statements about evolution and the gods guiding us in that natural process. Like you, I also believe in evolution rather than creation. However, I also feel that it was the gods who guided our species’ development and helped us forge our civilizations and rewarded us with power, knowledge, and prosperity for our services and sacrifices to them. However, I feel this was chiefly done by guiding and influencing humanity, as you also described, rather than through direct control. If the gods guided our creation and development instead of directly creating us and forging our civilizations, then this heavily implies that respect our capacity for independence and free thinking, instead of seeing as mere servants. As you said, it is a partnership that ensures mutual benefit. They guided us throughout our history and helped bring us to be. In return, we honor them and show our gratitude in return for further favors. This is the kind relationship I have had with the All-Father and the Empress of the Heavens for years.
Therefore, if a disagreement between me and the deities were to emerge, I would do as you demonstrated. If asked to do something that compromised my personal morals, I would be the utmost respectful and even ask for forgiveness for my refusal, showing them that I do not abide out of pride or aloofness, but out of difference of opinion. While I cannot truly speak for the heavenly beings, I do feel they would respect this, and I would be ready to face any consequences if deemed necessary.
Again, thank you for your response and another fascinating conversation. I always enjoy your beautiful insight.
Hi Winifred!
Do you happen to know anything about the Night Hag? What makes her visit people when they sleep?
Hmmm…that’s a good question, Sarah Louise! I think that this phenomenon has both physical and non-physical aspects. The sense of nightmarish paralysis that can occur during sleep can have neurological causes, but that’s not to say that there isn’t any involvement by a non-physical being as well. Our nervous systems are in some ways interfaces between physical and non-physical phenomena, and can offer access to spirit-beings. Beneficial spirit-beings can promote in us both emotional and physical calmness and peace, clarity of mind and good judgement. Malevolent beings can severely disturb our neurological systems and our thought processes.
Why do they do this? Why does the Night Hag visit people, as you ask? I’m assuming there are probably many reasons, and I’m not really clear about them. I assume that there must be some weak-point where she feels she can enter in: physical disturbances, harmful thoughts, etc, but this sounds like it’s blaming the person who suffers from such torment, and I don’t mean to do that. I don’t honestly know why she does what she does, and I’m not sure it’s a good idea to bring oneself closer to her by trying to understand her and know her reasons.
I’ve had a few such incursions, myself, many years ago, and as far as I can figure it was simply due to physical, neurological conditions, but it’s hard to analyze this objectively. What I can say is that I turned immediately to Thor for help, and have never since then had any problem from her. I set up a small shrine for Thor in my bedroom, hung a small Thor’s Hammer in the bedroom window, and prayed to him for protection before sleep for a period of time. I also prayed to Syn, Goddess of Denial, she who closes the door against those who should not enter.
I have some articles on my website that might be helpful if anyone wants to try these ideas: “Wigi Thonar: The Powers of Thor’s Hammer,” and “Syn: The “Just Say No” Goddess.” This Thor article offers a practice to support one’s ‘spiritual hygiene’ and spiritual power, to cleanse and empower one’s full being, which is always advisable when dealing with unpleasant spirits. The Syn article offers a prayer at the end that is meant to strengthen our firmness of mind in standing our own ground against any invasive influences, whether from spirits, the internet, or pushy people!
I hope this is helpful!
Winifred
Dear Winifred, as always I hope this message finds you well and that the gods have smiled down upon you since we last spoke. I was hoping to ask another question I have been giving much thought to, before I begin my next semester at Grad school, which may eat up much of my time. This new question I was hoping to ask relates to both the spiritual and cultural-philosophical aspects of Ásatrú, both of which you discussed so beautifully. Thus, I was hoping for your wise insight into this newfound thought I have been considering. Additionally, today I feel it is the perfect day to touch upon this subject.
As you know, today is Independence Day, the day our country was declared to be its own nation, separate from the power across the sea that ruled it at the time. I am also sure you are aware that many of the ideas that laid the foundation for this event resulted from the ideals of the philosophical age at the time, the Age of the Enlightenment. This has always been one of my favorite eras of philosophy, and I deeply admire the thoughts of the great philosophers of this era, especially Voltaire, Thomas Paine, and Baron d’Holbach. Additionally, another ancient philosophy that I have come to adore is one I believe we previously discussed before, which is the Greek philosophy of stoicism, which teaches us how to live a happy life through compassion, virtue, and resisting anger and fear.
Both of these philosophical thoughts I deeply admire and highly agree with, but at the same time, I also recognize how different they are from the traditional philosophies of Ásatrú. During one of our previous discussions, I believe you mentioned how the Enlightenment had its benefits but also drawbacks in its focus on reason. Thinking back on this has led me to consider a new perspective. Is believing in these philosophies while also being committed to the faith contradictory? While the religion is not fixed and there are multiple different interpretations and practices, is it possible to combine aspects of other philosophies that may traditionally be opposite to many of the faith’s traditional beliefs?
For example, the Age of Enlightenment placed heavy emphasis on inherent human rights and freedom of expression. During the time of the ancients, who revered the gods as we do, such ideas would have been met with disdain by many, especially those of and loyal to royal lines, just as they were during the 1700s. During this era, many kings were seen as having been descended from the gods or being mediators between men and the gods. Thus, surely many of them would have opposed the resistant ideas of the Enlightenment. This has also caused me to wonder, is it possible to incorporate philosophies of different eras and cultures with Ásatrú teachings effectively? If one philosophy that I have come to admire has teachings that may be contradictory to traditional beliefs of the faith, will this be of concern? Ideally, the era of Romanticism seemed to align more with Ásatrú’s ideals and beliefs, given its emphasis on respect for nature, emotional connection, and reverence for the past, all of which Ásatrú typically emphasizes. However, I personally prefer the teachings of the Enlightenment Era, especially its emphasis on individualism, rational thought, freedom of expression, and fundamental rights. Thus, I was hoping to receive your thoughts on this subject. Ultimately, what makes someone a proper member of the faith, when one worships the gods but may not always agree with its traditional values and even come to agree with other philosophies that may hold beliefs contradictory to these values?
From personal experience, this has not impacted my relationship with the gods in the slightest. Despite having these different beliefs and incorporating aspects of other cultures and eras’ philosophies, the gods have still answered my prayers and aided me through my trials. In fact, ideally, gods and goddesses of wisdom are generally patron deities of philosophers and sages. Thus, perhaps could the great philosophers I admire have been blessed by the All-father and almighty Frigg to develop such theories as they did, despite them having been in contrast to many of the beliefs and wisdoms that those before them claimed to have received through conversion or connection to the gods? If possible, I was hoping to receive your thoughts on this assessment.
Greetings, Ben–it’s always good to hear from you, and you’re right–that’s a good Independence Day topic you’re asking about!
I would actually not agree with your portrayal of Asatru or Heathenry as a faith entirely ruled by things like devotion to tradition, authority, and the like. I think that the arguments of the philosophers and schools of philosophy that you mention are consistent with our modern views, especially, but also with ancient views depending on when and where one looks in history.
First, in terms of ancient customs, you could start with the Roman writer Tacitus’ description of ‘Germans’ generally, writing around 100 CE. Here is part of his description: “The nobles make decisions about lesser matters, all freemen about things of greater significance (i.e. a relatively democratic process), with the proviso…that those subjects of which *ultimate judgement is in the hands of the mass of people* receive preliminary consideration among the nobles. … the king or the chieftains are heard…with the influence of persuasion being greater than the power to command. If a proposal has displeased them they show displeasure with a roar…” (from Germania, section / chapter 11, asterisk-emphasis mine.) I can’t find the reference, but I recall reading an account where the warriors were displeased about a decision of their chieftain and they spent the night outside his tent, shouting and beating their shields and being obnoxious until he changed his mind.
The Heathen Icelanders were very anti-monarchy; that was a main reason why they left Norway and other lands, to get away from kings and live democratically. They did have powerful chieftains, but they also had many democratic customs, as was the case among other Heathen tribes. Heathen kings or other leaders had power and respect because they demonstrated luck: luck in battle, in fertility of the land, in the affairs of their people. If the luck declined over a long period of time, the leaders were often overthrown or pushed aside–or they simply lost their battles and became irrelevant.
This regard for luck as a prime requirement for their leaders was especially evident among the tribes who settled in England, and the Frankish tribes. In my article “Webs of Luck and Wyrd” I discuss my thoughts about the role that regard for luck played in conversion to Christianity, where Christian forces were viewed as being more powerful and successful, with this being ‘proof’ of their luck and therefore their ‘right’ to leadership. That attitude, in turn, worked along with the Christian idea of the ‘divine right of kings’ (this was not only a Christian idea, but it was introduced into Germanic cultures through Christianity). Heathens certainly considered that their kings and chieftains might have special connections to Deity–sometimes even being descended from them, and had luck that was probably received directly from the Gods, and they valued those things. But that there was such a thing as ‘divine right of kingship’ that no humans could contest–that was not Heathen.
Many modern Heathens, myself included, consider that some of the most important roots of democratic practices that we revere today come from Germanic custom, including the Things and Moots and other forms of public assembly and decision-making. Many fundamental rights were indeed inherent among the Heathens, including for women, and even in some cultures some minimal rights for thralls, though much depends on which specific Germanic tribe or culture we’re looking at. Generally speaking, when Christianity and laws based on Christian demands and Roman custom were imposed on Heathen tribes, their rights were diminished, especially for women’s rights and status. Just as one example, Heathenry had priestesses, Christianity did not. Christianity is a much more authoritative and demanding religion than is Heathenry, and it had a huge influence on the laws that Christian kings imposed.
As for philosophical virtues such as self-restraint, compassion, peaceableness, calm spirit and the like: actually you can find praise for such things in the Havamal, though also praise for some of the opposites! Yes, there was a lot of pounding of chests and aggressive behavior back in those times–among Germanic tribes, Romans, Christians, people in general. It was a brutal time. Heathens also had a great respect for frith and the behaviors that support it, as I discuss in “Frith, Friendship, and Freedom,” and “Heathen Frith and Modern Ideals.”
Regardless, we as modern Heathens are free to develop our own approaches to life and morality. Not all of modern Heathenry is simple ‘reenactment’; a lot of it involves bringing it forward into the life we live today. There is nothing in our faith that prevents us from developing ethical principles that are common to most other philosophies and religions as well. Ethics are what helps us live with others and form functional communities and societies; it’s necessary to be able to share some fundamental ethical values so as to have common ground, a place to work from, together.
I think that many of the values of the Enlightenment are entirely consistent with Heathenry, very much including the ones that you list. The only criticism I have of Enlightenment values is that it is incomplete in some ways: non-rational experiences and viewpoints, including religious ones, are denied or devalued. Enlightenment is very good as far as it goes, but to the extent that it depends *entirely* on materialistic and non-spiritual perspectives it ends up truncating the full spectrum of human experience and the meaningfulness of human life. It’s just as easy to do the same thing from the opposite side–espousing an entirely Romantic viewpoint, or a very authoritarian monotheistic one, and denigrating the power and value of human reason, for example.
What I’m against is any attempt, from any direction, to truncate or limit the full expanse of human abilities, experience, exploration, and the pursuit of both eminently practical as well as deeply meaningful paths of life. I fully believe that our Deities are behind this human desire and need to expand our outlook, our understanding, experience, connections, learning, and shaping our philosophies of life accordingly. And this includes expanding our horizons by exploring what humans on other paths have learned, and possibly learning something relevant from them, too. I certainly have!
If one is in some doubt about how to proceed in terms of incorporating other ideas into our own philosophy, this can be discussed with our Deities, of course. For myself, I’ve received nothing but encouragement for exploring in any direction that’s worth taking seriously. I ponder on what I learn, discuss it with them, ‘feel’ and sift my way through it all, look for congruences and disconnects between those other ideas and my basis in Heathen ideas. I learn from what fits and connects with Heathen ideas and values, and also from what does not–these efforts build critical thinking skills, and contrary to some other religions, I believe our Deities are very much in favor of critical thinking! Somehow all this effort results in me being shaped ever more deeply and widely in pursuit of Heathen philosophy, in my own assessment, though of course some might disagree with me.
I think that the practice of Heathen religion and spirituality is a matter of being faithful to our own Holy Ones: it is troth, trust, love, respect, companionship. The practice of Heathen philosophy is, like the practice of any philosophy, dependent upon open-minded exploration, broad learning, critical thinking, analysis and synthesis, deep pondering, and discussion with both humans and spiritual beings. I believe that in Heathenry these these activities–religion, spirituality, and philosophy–do not have to conflict with each other. I believe that our Gods encourage our freedom of thought. It only strengthens our belief when we explore other ideas and find that some of them support our beliefs and values as well.
I hope I’ve addressed your questions here, but if not I’m sure you’ll ask! As for whether Odin and Frigg inspire philosophers of other traditions and cultures….maybe, but I think it’s more likely that their own Deities do. Now, if said philosophers happen to be atheists or agnostics, then perhaps our Deities do give them a nudge or two, since the field is clear, so to speak! Especially if the philosophy they propound is very compatible with Heathen thought.
I think that philosophies coming out of different cultures tend to have a unique flavor of their own, that stems from their culture and the Deities they’re connected to. Just like people benefit from traveling to new places and learning new things, opening up their minds and insights, but appreciate coming home to their own place, so we can enjoy, benefit from, and learn from different ways and ‘places’ of thought that are new to us, while still coming home to our own and knowing it for ours.
May our Holy Ones now and evermore promote our freedom of thought, and encourage it in others as well!
Winifred
Winifred, thank you so much for another wonderful reply. I always love receiving your profound wisdom on these matters. I agree with your assessment and have also experienced support from the Holy Ones in my philosophical endeavors.
Also, I would like to apologize regarding some of my comments that could have been worded more adequately. In my statements, it was not my intention to depict Asatru as a faith primarily dictated ruled by devotion to tradition and authority, and I hope I did not make it seem like the traditional philosophies of the faith were entirely antithetical to Enlightnement principles. For the former, I know there are many different forms of Asatru that different groups adopt, which includes different beliefs and customs. This goes for every religion, such as Catholics, baptists, episcopal for Christianity, Shia and Sunni for Islam, and Vaishnavism, Shaivism, and Shaktism for Hinduism. However, though they are different denominations of the same faith, each religion still possesses some shared values and philosophical beliefs. The same applies for Asatru, which has different sects with different beliefs, but also similar “universal” values one might call them. Based on that, I was asking about the shared values each sect that still makes them part of the religion and how might those shared values be harmonized or opposed by the philosophies of other cultures if that makes sense. In regards to the Enlightenment, I was using that primary as an example of such philosophies.
However, I truly wish to thank you for providing such a powerful explanation of how much the wisdom of the ancients actually connected with the future thinkings of the Enlightenment, especially in terms of natural rights, liberties, and resistance to authoritarian institutions. To me, this shows that not only can the common or universal values shared by the various sects Asatru can coexist with the philosophical beliefs developed in other cultures, with the Enlightenment as an example, but they can also strengthen one another and perhaps allow us to find deeper understanding to things than the ancients did.
Like you, I too hope to walk the path of a philosopher, developing my own philosophies as I study the world and strengthen my connection with the deities. To me, much if not all of this progress I owe to the gods of wisdom, whom I revere and believe guide me in such quests for deeper understanding.
Truly, thank you so much for all your help and, again, I apologize if any of my words unintentionally came off as disrespectful or misunderstood. May both the All-Father and almighty Frigg continue to bless you and further guide us all in our quests of knowledge and understanding.
Ben, no need at all for apology; I paid less attention than I might have to branches of Asatru / Heathenry that tend to be more traditional, conservative and enclosed, one might say. I’ve had experience with some of them, and very much liked some aspects like the loyalty and the very deep focus on Heathen ways, language, and practices. I feel that I gained a lot from them, but I would not have been able to develop in the directions I have, like Heathen soul lore, if I had continued solely on that path because branching off in new directions is not always welcome among them. But even in those groups’ approaches, I think there are aspects that are also common to other schools of philosophy, as we discussed in our posts earlier.
I had a sense, while I was responding to you yesterday, that I wasn’t responding to the heart of what you were saying, but I wasn’t quite clear about what that was. You clarified it here: “I was asking about the shared values each sect that still makes them part of the religion and how might those shared values be harmonized or opposed by the philosophies of other cultures if that makes sense. In regards to the Enlightenment, I was using that primary as an example of such philosophies.”
I know there have been efforts in the recent past, within modern Heathenry, to pin down some expression of universal Heathen values. Unfortunately, Asatru / Heathenry is subject to the same kinds of polarization that our general society is going through now, which makes any formal acknowledgement of common roots and values problematic today. The focus tends to be more on our differences than on our similarities, as it is in our society generally, which makes the establishment of common ground both difficult and generally unwelcome at the present time, as I have discovered for myself over the years.
Thus, philosophy moves into politics, within Heathenry as well as outside it, both pursuits being profound and important, but branching off in directions that I don’t pursue in my writing except somewhat in my frith articles. Those articles, “Heathen Frith and Modern Ideals,” and “Frith, Friendship, and Freedom,” come the closest that I’ve approached so far to what you’re talking about, I think. If you have time before your studies start up again, you might look through them and see if they speak somewhat to the matters you’re discussing. I’d like to know whether they do!
One thing to consider: although many cultural changes have taken place between Heathen times and today, keep in mind that Western philosophies, like the Enlightenment, still have arisen in the same places and within the same root cultures as Heathenry did (and Druidry, as well). Thus, it’s no great surprise if we find at least some commonalities among them, as well as differences stemming from different cultural influences.
You did not at all come across as disrespectful, and if I misunderstood you I apologize myself! May the Holy Ones bless you and your thoughtful philosophical endeavors!
In frith,
Winifred
Hi Winifred! I just wanted to drop a line and thank you, so sincerely, for your work. HSL has been a profound addition to my spiritual journey and has also found a really powerful home in my clinical practice- I just ordered the workbook so I can go back through all the material in I and II and really embody it.
Thanks so much again!
Josh
Josh, thank you so much for this feedback! I’m especially pleased to know that you find use for this Heathen soul lore in your clinical practice. I, and many soul lore study graduates, feel that it has great potential for therapeutic use as well as for spiritual and personal development. I’ve heard from some Heathens that even some of their non-Heathen family members have wanted to use Heathen soul lore for counseling, and their counselors have been supportive of that approach.
I don’t at all mean to push you, here, but if at any time you have any advice or feedback about using this soul lore in a therapeutic setting, I would be very pleased if you’d allow me to post it on my website for reference. I’d very much like to see it developed in this direction, but I don’t have the kind of expertise needed to do it myself. Though I would be glad to partner as an advisor with any therapist who wanted to develop this soul lore for clinical use.
Thank you again, and blessings on your soul lore studies and applications!
Winifred
Hello Winifred! I hope you are doing well. I have been getting antsy about the new book you are writing and was wondering if you had an idea of when you think it will be complete? Thanks for your time!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques
Greetings, Jaques!
Thanks for your enquiry! I’m working hard on the book. I’m hoping to finish the actual content by the middle of this month, and have asked my contributors for theirs by that time too. There’s still a lot for me to do after that on the publishing end of things, but my aim is to publish by late Sept. or early Oct. If possible before then, but I’m trying to be realistic! Some of the timing is out of my control, like how long it takes to get the Library of Congress number, which I can’t apply for until the manuscript is complete, and how long it takes Lulu to print and ship my proof copy of the book for review, before it is released. Each of those can take a couple weeks.
The whole thing has taken longer than I originally expected, because as I write new ideas spring up, which then have to be developed and written about. This often entails revisiting chapters I already wrote because I have new insights about those topics, and then it ends up I need to reorganize whole sections of the book because the flow of ideas and connections between them has changed. Then I realize that there are gaps in the flow, and need to think, research, and write more to make those connections….all this makes it a better book, of course, and I’m excited about it too, but it is a lot of work! Which I thoroughly enjoy, but I want to do it well and that takes time, including a lot of time for thinking and meditating as well as research.
I appreciate you asking; of course it’s encouraging to know that people are eager to read the book! I am too–it’s a great feeling to hold my newly published book in my hands.
Winifred
Winifred,
Sounds great! I’ve been looking forward to it for some time now and I don’t mean to add any more pressure I’m just excited! Thank you!
Very Respectfully,
Jacques