Thank you, Ben! We did spend part of the night in the basement, listening to the tornado alarms and reports on the weather radio, but the storm passed us by without any significant harm–thanks be to Thor! I hope the same for you, and I’m most sorry for all those who experienced much more severe impacts from the rough weather that affected much of our country.

I did reply to your post about Folkvang, in the reply section rather than as a new post.

Ben, I very much appreciate your depiction here of your understanding of Folkvang, and it feels right to me, as well as to you. This is an area of our beliefs that I had not yet explored in any depth, and I’m glad to have this understanding that you provide.

As you imply, the majority of warriors throughout time have been ordinary people forced to defend their homes and families, their lands and tribes, or forced by dire circumstances to find other places to live so their people could survive. Most of these warriors were very young when they started on that path–young teenagers–and were given little choice, inculcated into the warrior mindset without being offered other ways to make a living and gain respect in the eyes of their communities. In large families, some children received land or wealth, while others were left to make their own way because there wasn’t enough to go around.

It does seem very right that there be an afterlife place for them, too: one which, as you say, respects their sacrifices and courage without asking them to perpetually follow the warrior path. And one which makes room for them to continue pursuing their true motivations for fighting, namely to treasure their families and communities who join them in the afterlife, and the peaceful way of life that was their reason and reward for their fighting and sacrifices during life.

The name of Freya’s afterlife domain, Folkvang, supports your view. The “folk” part can refer either to an army, or to a folk, an ordinary, peaceful group of people united by a common culture. And the “vang” part means a field, a meadow, an area of countryside, which implies agricultural land, grazing land, and land available for foraging. Land where people can live and prosper in peace.

I suppose that, on occasions when Freya needs this, she could call for volunteers from her ‘retired’ warriors and they would support her need, but as you say, one wouldn’t regard them as full-time professional warriors as the Einherjar are.

So, thank you very much for this picture of Folkvang; I will treasure it!

I’d like to add here another note about God-Homes and afterlife locations. In the old lore, as we all know, there was much emphasis on warrior culture and the afterlife of warriors in Valhalla. But in the prose Edda, several other abodes are mentioned in connection with Odin, including Gladsheim, Vingolf, and Valaskjalf, where his high seat Hlidskjalf was said to be located. It’s not very clear; in one reference Vingolf is the hall of the Goddesses together, in another it’s one of Odin’s halls. Gladsheim, too, is in one context said to be a central location for all the Gods, in another it’s one of Odin’s places.

Actually, it all makes sense to me: the Gods and Goddesses often gather together for feasts and meetings, so why shouldn’t some of their places be considered as much gathering-places as any individual Deity’s abodes? But where I’m going with this is that I believe Odin has one or more other Halls, other than Valhalla, where people who’ve worked closely with Odin in ways other than fighting may choose to gather in the afterlife.

I see Valaskjalf in particular as one of those, named for the powers of seership, and the location of his high seat where he sees, ponders, and learns much of his wisdom–and which, it is said, he shares with Frigg. I think that people who follow Odin’s path of wisdom rather than the path of the warrior may find a good afterlife home in Valaskjalf, or in Gladsheim, or Vingolf–the Hall of Friends (vin = friend).

I also want to wrap up this comment by noting that, following the ideas of soul lore that I’ve researched and developed, I think that the souls we’re talking about here are the Ghost-souls or spirits, who are naturally drawn to the God-Homes after death. I also think that we have other souls, the Saiwalos (this is the proto-Germanic word from which our word ‘soul’ descended’). The Saiwalos, as I understand it, have their natural home in Hel. After death, our Ghost goes to a God-Home, or spends time in several of them, while Saiwalo pursues its existence in Hel, the Womb of Souls.

Anyway, thank you, Ben, for all this good and interesting discussion!

Dear Winifred, thank you for your response. I have so much I wish to comment on but I understand your plight and have myself preoccupied now as well.

I pray that you may be safe and that all goes well. May great Thor, Lord of the weather, protect you and your loved ones from this terrible storm.

I think, and I know some Heathens who agree with this, that the Ragnarok that is described so powerfully at the end of the Voluspa is an event that already happened: it describes in symbolic terms the tumultuous events of the conversion of Heathen lands and peoples to Christianity, and the years of Christian hegemony and the imposition of its imperial power. This is certainly something that affected our God/desses and religion as well as mundane life, political power, and everything else. (I write about some aspects of that time and the role of wyrd / orlog and the Norns, in my article “Webs of Luck and Wyrd: Interplays and Impacts on Events.”)

Holy Baldr was killed and went to dwell in Hel; Nanna joined him there. Njordh heads off to Vanaheim, apparently deciding to sit this one out, though his son Frey joins the Aesir forces (maybe Freya, too). The other elder male Aesir die during Ragnarok, taking their foes with them. (I assume that they, like Baldr and Nanna, go to some otherworld realm of waiting.) Much fighting of forces occurs, then a conflagration. Earth sinks under the sea, out of the light of sun and moon. There is an age, now, where silence reigns about the old things, the old ways and beliefs–they are forcibly or willingly shoved underground, into the subconscious.

But then the Earth rises again, out from the sea. Tokens of the old times are found by the younger Gods who survived Ragnarok, and presumably the Goddesses too. Baldr and presumably Nanna return. Hoenir casts the rune-tines anew. A new world arises, a new time where God/desses and Heathens renew their knowledge of each other, their ties, their customs, their beliefs. We all crawl out of the underworld, so to speak, into the light of day. The other Gods return, as Baldr does, from whatever other World they went to after their deaths. The old cycle of Ragnarok spirals around on itself and another spiral begins.

But unlike in the poem, symbolic and poetic, the old / existing world is still here, still with some issues the old Heathens dealt with plus many, many more we’ve generated in modern times. The Ragnarok that comes next may not involve hand-to-hand combat with giants and monstrous beings, wolves and phantoms from Hel. Though of course it could involve that: the issues and problems of our world could take those shapes again.

But where I’m going with this is that I think we who live in this world today can see many dangerous issues, situations, precedents developing across the board–everything from how children are influenced as they grow up today, to changing world orders, to climate change, to the fact that when life grows intolerable and impossible for them, people and animals and plants do what they have always done: try to migrate to a new and better place to live. But those places are taken now; the world is crowded and many conflicts arise.

I don’t have to go on; we’re all familiar with these lists. The point is: our next Ragnarok may require other skills in addition to those of the physical warrior. I’m sure that Odin and the other Deities are well aware of this and are taking steps accordingly, in terms of human souls they recruit or welcome to their Halls, and train to help them in the afterlife.

And in this broader picture of the roles of human Ghosts in the afterlife, I see every God/dess and God-Hall as having something to contribute. Like Thor’s huge Hall that holds the farmers, the crafts-folk, the everyday workers, the fathers and mothers supporting their families, the practical-minded and stout-hearted backbone of human life. Frigg’s Hall where she and her Ladies offer so much support, too, to the skills and graces and healing of everyday social and family life, and powerful love in all its forms. Where would we be without those? And your picture of Freya’s Folkvang fits beautifully in here, too. Tyr and his focus on law and lawful assemblies, and the power to keep them lawful and frithful. And on and on.

The point is, many new skills may be needed–really, already are needed–as the next challenges of human life and the rumblings of the next Ragnarok develop. Honorable folk of all kinds, not only warriors, will be needed–each one loyally offering the gifts they have to offer and working with the Holy Ones whose focus and skills they share. I hope that my own skills of wordcraft and idea-craft will also be useful in their own way, however they transform as I arrive in the God-realms!

That’s my picture of what cyclical Ragnarok is, and the roles of the God/desses, and our Ghosts or Spirits who can support and work with them, each of us in our own best ways, for the good of all.

…I’m quitting for the evening because severe weather is approaching and we’re preparing to hole up in our basement if necessary! Tornadoes are not uncommon around here, nor is power loss… I’ll have more to write in response later.

There’s only one thing in your latest posts where I have a different viewpoint than yours, and that is on the subject of where Christians (and other non-Heathens) go after death. I believe in the reality of all the Deities, not only the Heathen ones. I was Christian (Episcopal) for a number of years and received valuable spiritual training and experiences there, as real as I’ve received within Heathendom. I’ve known people on other religious paths whose wisdom and spiritual development parallels what we can achieve on ours. I left Christianity not because I disbelieved in it, but because a stronger loyalty drew me to our God/desses. But I still maintain respect and honor for all faiths and paths, except for specific interpretations of beliefs which cause significant harm to others, which unfortunately can occur in any religion.

By the same token, I think that the afterlife arrangements for people of other faiths are their own–Christians go to their own Heaven or Hell, so do Hindus and Muslims go each to their own. Buddhists have their own complex afterlife path. Tribal peoples around the world go to be with their ancestors as they have done for countless thousands of years. Australian Aborigines enter their Dreamtime; followers of Santeria join their Loa, and so forth and so on. So in my point of view, I’m not the least concerned about Christians wandering around loose in Valhalla, Folkvang, Hel, or anyplace else of ours! I don’t think they go there; they go to their own afterlife places.

I feel strongly that, in spite of what Christians, Muslims, and others say, no God and no afterlife domain has power over other people’s God/desses and afterlife domains. Jahweh can’t grab Heathens to send to his own Hell, nor can Odin grab Christians unless in their own hearts they realize they do want to go with him, which I think sometimes happens (perhaps especially with warriors). But then they’re no longer Christians, they become Odin’s own (or Freya’s, or Frigg’s, or Thor’s, etc.). That’s how people convert from one religion to another, and that can even happen at the time of death. They switch from one jurisdiction to another, but this can happen only through free will and sufficient understanding to comprehend their choices.

I know of several Heathen shaman-type practitioners who have indeed found Christian souls lost and wandering in Hel or in the metaphysical layers of spirit-life here in Midgard. In each case I know of, these souls were terrified of being condemned to the Christian hell, and were trying to escape that fate, ending up in our realms instead. My Heathen friends were usually able to guide these souls onward to places better suited to their customary beliefs, but in some cases the souls chose to stay where they were. But those are occasional exceptions, not the general rule.

While on the subject, I’ll just mention that my spiritual explorations of our Hel-World and the souls at home there have led to quite a different picture than images of any place called ‘Hel’ usually bring up. If you’re interested, I’ve written at length about this in my articles “Hel-Dweller,” “The Soul and the Sea,” “What Happened to Heathen Saiwalo-Soul?” and my 6-part series on the “Alchemy and Ecology of Hel.”

I’ll stop here and continue in the next post.

Also, if I may, I would like to offer my perspective on the realm of Folkvang, which you have expressed intrigue on the circumstances and events occurring within this afterlife realm. From reading about this afterlife for many years now, my understanding is this: Folkvang is something of paradise realm and place of eternal piece for warriors chosen by Freya and the Valkyries that directly serve under her instead of the All-Father.

Ironically, while most incorrectly consider Valhalla to be the Viking equivalent of the Christian heaven, which as you pointed out is not the case, it seems Folkvang is a much closer comparison by my understanding. In her realm, it is said warriors help her tend to the fields and enjoy peace and tranquility.

There are some indications as to the criteria of acceptance into this realm ruled by the great goddess. For example, as patron of the shield maiden warriors, it is was said that Freya welcomed all of them who were slain in battle into Folkvang. Because of this, I have often thought that modern female soldiers who fall in battle are most likely to be escorted by the Valkyries to Folkvang. Additionally, based on reading the various poems, Eda’s and other ancient texts, and commentaries regarding them, it appears there Freya chooses the lesser warriors slain in the battlefield. In your discussion, you described the einherjar as “special-forces” with Lord Odin choosing the greatest of warriors to enter and train at Valhalla, for Ragnarok. Based on this, it seems Freya takes in the lowly soldiers. This being the common, ordinary foot soldiers as opposed to more skilled and dangerous warriors, who the All-Father is more likely to desire in his hall to prepare and train for the coming of Ragnarok. I have even heard by some that the families of fallen soldiers can sometimes be welcomed to live amongst them under Great Freya’s rule, adding further support to this being a true warrior’s “paradise.

Based on this I suppose Folkvang is reserved for soldiers who are not seeking glory and duty, as those who enter Valhalla do, as you mentioned earlier. For example, a common foot soldiers opposed who was conscripted into service, who had no training and no real desire for war, would be taken into Folkvang, while a Navy Seal for example who is skilled in numerous forms of combat and is a veteran special forces soldier, would more likely be accepted into Valhalla if slain in battle. Based on this, I have always viewed Folkvang as something of a warriors paradise as opposed to Valhalla, where the slain chosen by great Freya enjoy peace for deeds and heroic sacrifice, while those chosen by Great Odin wish to continue the warrior’s way even in death, fulfilling the desires of glory and duty in his service that you mentioned before.

Going back to the question of morality, I feel that soldiers who commit what we term as war crimes would not be welcomed by the goddess into Folkvang. As a patron goddess of women, I can hardly see Great Freya welcoming rapists and tortures into her domain. And since the realm seems somewhat reserved for more modest and lower-ranking warriors who fall in battle, it seems rather unlikely that she would permit fallen soldiers who craved bloodshed for the sake of it and committed acts of massive cruelty against noncombatants, including genocide, such as those of the Nazi and Khmer Rogue regimes for example, into her rather peaceful sounding realm.

Based on this, perhaps morality may indeed play into the selection of fallen warriors after-all, as Great Freya may not wish for destructive and vile individuals to pollute her realm.

If possible, I would like to know your thoughts on this assessment.

Dear Winifred, thank you so very much for these captivating explanations and answers! I have truly enjoyed reading your thoughts on this subject and receiving your wisdom once again.

Your answers are indeed very thoughtful and do offer a great sense of reason to their understandings. In regards to my earlier question about Christian warriors, it does indeed make much sense. I don’t truly see Christian warriors being welcomed into Valhalla or Folkvang, for, as you pointed out, they would feel welcomed existing in the realm of gods/goddesses outside of their monotheistic beliefs. Additionally, I don’t believe the gods would be comfortable with warriors in their realms who do not appreciate nor truly respect them. Thus, I feel it is more likely that Christian soldiers would most likely be sent to Hel if fallen in battle.

As for your other discussions, to be sure I understand, it seems that you speculated that the acceptance into either realm is primarily determined by the standards of the current era in which battles are fought and for the primary motivations of the warriors fighting in these battles. You have stated that each culture eventually has a “Ragnarok” of its own and the standards of acceptance into Valhalla much change in order to prepare for these culture devastations. Thus, it can be assumed that the standards of acceptance have changed for wars waged today as opposed to the Viking era. Based on this, warriors who commit modern definitions of war crimes may not be accepted into these realms after all.

Also, I am quite intrigued by the unique distinction you pointed out regarding the motives of the Viking raiders. I know that during that time, Norse warriors and seamen were drawn to pillaging the coasts of England and Europe for wealth, resources, and land to conquer. However, you have noted that not all of these motives were considered honorable, even by their standards at the time. This has opened new thoughts for me, since, if the texts that state only the “honorable” are welcomed into these halls are true, the many of the Vikings warriors who fell in battle may not have been accepted into either after all.

Thank you for this new perspective!

I realize I need to clarify a comment I made earlier, that seems to mock the rewards of Valhalla. I don’t mean to do this; rather, my point is that reward isn’t the *reason* for the existence of Valhalla or for the choice of the Einherjar, I don’t think. For Odin, the reason is preparing for Ragnarok, as I argued before, and for the Einherjar, I believe the reasons for being in Valhalla are honor and loyalty to Odin, the Aesir, and Odin’s purposes.

If the main reason for Valhalla was ‘reward,’ then the Einherjar would simply be mercenaries, not honor-bound warriors. I have more respect than to call them that!

But for warriors as for everyone else, of course rewards are welcome and appreciated, and from the images of Valhalla in the lore–ancient and modern–the warriors clearly do appreciate it!

As for the warriors in Folkvang, I simply don’t know what is happening there; there’s so little in the lore to go on, and the warrior aspect of Freya isn’t one that I know at all well. I know she takes many people into her hall, warriors and others as well, but I don’t know what her warriors do, specifically, nor do I know what criteria she uses to choose them.

One thing I wonder is whether she maybe takes warriors, not because she wants them to be warriors for her, but because she’s offering them an afterlife home as she offers to many noncombatant women and other people generally. Another possibility is that she does want them as warriors and that she and they also take part in Ragnarok.

Well, this is all very interesting and I’ve been enjoying the conversation!

Blessings to you and to all who read this…
Winifred

(Continuing from my previous post)

I, and I think many other modern Heathens as well, look at the situation more from Odin’s perspective–he’s recruiting the warriors he needs to prepare for Ragnarok, not rewarding the wealthy patrons of poets. Odin isn’t really the type to be giving out lollipops for being a brave little boy!

Now getting into the morality aspect: first I’ll say that Odin is not really the God to look to, for the details of moral behavior. He has his own morality, which I would characterize as “The ends justify the means,” something that many of us today don’t consider to be the high ground of moral behavior even though it’s often tempting to adopt that approach.

Odin doesn’t try to justify this, but he has his reasons. As I understand it, though he knows that Ragnarok will bring about the deaths of the elder Aesir Gods and destruction of Midgard and its societies, what he wants to do is bring down the enemies that will cause that destruction so that a new cycle of the Worlds can begin, one which does not have these dire enemies looming over it. He will do what it takes to bring that about, and his choice of the Einherjar is one of the tactics he uses. (As to his own role in the arising of the enemies of the Aesir, that’s another whole can of worms!)

So let’s move on to the modern day, and the question as to whether the criteria of acceptance into Valhalla have changed. I’ll offer a scenario and a response to this question that might or might not make sense to anyone else. Odin and the Valkyries choose the Einherjar for a reason: their potential effectiveness at Ragnarok. So what is Ragnarok? Has the understanding of the nature of Ragnarok changed over time, along with so much else? And if it has, then the role of the Einherjar changes too, and hence the criteria for selecting them also have to change.

I propose this way of looking at it: Ragnarok is the symbol of a dire threat to the world, a massive change in the circumstances of living and in the things one believes and trusts. It’s as much an ‘inner’ thing as an ‘outer’ one. Various cultures and societies and locations of humans have experienced Ragnarok-equivalents many times over the centuries and millenia: effectively their own cultural world comes to a terrible end, the world they always knew before, even though the physical world continues in its existence. Though indeed there are often physical disasters too: floods, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, famine, and the like. Climate change, too. This happens all the time around the world. Sadly and awfully, it’s happening right now to various groups of people. It’s often heralded by the death of a culture hero, like Baldr for the Heathens.

Different people respond differently to these events, and their religions play a role in shaping these responses. I suggest that the role of Odin and Valhalla, and I’d say Freya and Folkvang too, and in fact all the other Deities as well, who are much involved with all this–is to prepare for such changes as these ‘cultural Ragnaroks’ bring. Changes for them–the Deities, and changes for us humans, for Heathens specifically, and for the natural world as well.

And so, the selection of the Einherjar and the Folkvang warriors needs to change, to prepare in a suitable way for the nature of whatever Ragnarok is coming next. And not only them. Odin boasts in Grimnismal 24 that Thor’s hall is the greatest of all, even larger than Valhalla, which contains fighters as well. I write some thoughts about the dwellers in that Hall in my article about Sif and the Hall she shares with Thor: https://heathensoullore.net/goddess-sif-kinship-and-hospitality/

In another article I quote a powerful poem written by modern Heathen John Mainer about Vidar, which gives a picture of a different ‘hall of waiting’ for warriors chosen by Vidar. https://heathensoullore.net/to-honor-vidar/

Frigg and her ladies have great roles to play. Tyr, through the Tyr-star that guides us over the paths of night, as the rune-poem says, points out a trustworthy path for those who would work with the Gods. All of our Deities have their teams of partners and human afterlife souls who support their work and aims in Midgard through spiritual means. They don’t remain fixed in the past, focused on things that might or might not have much relevance for today.

So, I think that the selection today of warriors for Valhalla and for Folkvang needs to take into account whatever form of ‘Ragnarok’ may be coming next. The thing is, we don’t know what shape that will take, nor what kinds of responses the Holy Ones may be preparing to deal with it. Here, I’d say, is where some trust comes in: trust that we Heathens and Odin and Freya and all the Deities can align our values and ethics to fit both the Gods’ vision and our own about what is right, as these matters play out in today’s world with all of today’s challenges and confusions.

We need to follow and live by our own values, and interact with our Holy Ones to understand their views, their actions, and their choices. And thereby we find and trust in the common ground, the frith, that unites us all. Ethics and values grow out of a ground of frith, and support that frith. The Gods expect us to accomplish this creation and maintenance of frith and the values that support it by ourselves; they don’t impose it on us as other deities do with their followers. We need to have the intelligence and goodwill to take this pursuit seriously, knowing that it’s our responsibility but that the Gods respect us for our efforts, and meet us on that path of mutual understanding.

I think, Ben, that this question you asked, and that other Heathens ask as well, arises from the root of a longing for frith among humans, and frith between humans and Deities. We want to have a sense of values and to know those values are shared with others, humans and Deities, both. By asking the questions and pursuing the answers as well as we can, we help to create that common ground of understanding among us all. So, thank you for the asking!

Whenever we see individuals celebrated in the old poetry who are said to be taken into Valhalla, these people are of high status, kings or chieftains or famous warriors. They are not the raff and scaff of the Viking crews raiding and pillaging, but people who in the view of their society held and earned the highest honors, based their deeds, their status, their heritage and descent, and their luck. These people were driven by their sense of honor, which was sometimes quite different than ours today, as you mentioned, but their concept of honor was very much present and motivated much of what they did.

Viking raids abroad were not motivated by honor, but by gain and by the headiness of having power over those they regarded as prey–foreigners outside the frith of their own society. Their own societies didn’t regard this behavior as dishonorable, as we would, but neither was it specifically considered honorable, as vengeance against a personal enemy would be considered honorable. It was just a practical thing that brought them profit. (Though some raids were indeed motivated by vengeance, and those were considered honorable.)

I haven’t come across any mention (though there could be some) of Valkyries ‘harvesting’ the souls of Vikings killed during raids. The Valkyries hover over fields of battle that are being fought for the sake of honor, for vengeance, for trying to raise the status, success and luck of the combatants, and they may well be there to harvest souls from both sides of the battle as acknowledgement that both sides are fighting for their own honor.

There are some passages in the old lore that say that Odin takes *all* those slain in battle every day, or the one that says he takes half and Freya takes half, whereas in other accounts it sounds like he and the Valkyries are being much more particular, choosing just a few out of the mass of combatants in each conflict. I believe that the latter is more accurate, and the title of “einherjar,” the single or unique warriors, supports that view. The Einherjar are not, really, a massed army, but rather ‘special forces’ that are individually chosen according to the criteria of Odin and the Valkyries (who are not always in agreement).

As I see it, the process is one of ‘choice’, not just a godly vacuum-cleaner sucking up the souls of everyone who’s fighting every day and spitting them out into Valhalla and Folkvang. That’s why the Valkyries (or Waelcyrige in Anglo-Saxon) are called what they are: *choosers* of the slain. They’re picky! And the ones they don’t choose go off to Hel with everyone else, where things might be pleasant and comfortable for them, or might not.

It’s those criteria you’re interested in: why does Odin choose, or direct the Valkyries to choose, one warrior and not the next one, assuming that indeed the Einherjar are chosen individually? I get the impression from your original question that you view the entry into Valhalla or Folkvang as a reward for the chosen warrior, and the old poetry often treats it that way, too. I think the poets did that to flatter their wealthy patrons with visions of the treat awaiting them after their heroic death, and to encourage the warrior spirit so chieftains would have people eager to join their war-bands. If you look at the powerful ‘Sonatorrek’ poem by that crusty old Heathen, Egil Skallagrimson—who was *not* a court-poet—that laments the deaths of his sons, you won’t see any praise of Valhalla there. He considers that Odin has stolen his “all-worthy” son from him: “Odin, not Egil, enjoys him forever.”

(I’ll stop here and continue in my next post so it’s not too long.)